I think you’re right, but one side effect of being a blue-blood is a lack of patience and high expectations. If UNC were to miss the tournament this year after their crappy last year and then starts next season something like 5-5 you can bet people will be upset.
As another data point, today for the first time I looked at KenPom’s program rankings. You can read about his methodology if you like - there are no direct facilities or fan-base factors as far as I can tell.
The B1G, not surprisingly, is extremely deep but not too top-heavy:
5th MSU
12th OSU
13th Wisconsin
14th Maryland
20th Illinois
21st Michigan
22nd Purdue
23rd Indiana
44th Iowa
53rd Minnesota
79th Nebraska
80th Penn State
86th Northwestern
93rd Rutgers
There’s an interesting balance of factors in whether a program is perceived as a blue-blood. A string of national championships in the '70s and '80s may be meaningless to a 16 year old holding a basketball, but to a 60 year old holding a checkbook it’s pretty important. You’ll note that AssHall officially carries the name of a wealthy IU alum, not a deceased athletic director. Calipari seems to be the king of walking this tightrope, as he has Kentucky boosters battling to give money just as fast as the players can take, er, benefit from it.
Apart from a few forays into Texas and one European, I can’t remember Izzo recruiting outside the Midwest. But he has had a hell of a lot of success in Michigan, Indiana, Ohio, and Illinois. The formula for MSU, OSU and Indiana seems pretty similar: lock up the best home state kids and poach any good players you can from your neighbors, though Crean did strike gold going somewhat further afield. Michigan has cast a much wider net for decades, whether from ambition or necessity.
And returning to Archie Island, I’ll point out that although Painter has owned him, IU is 4-0 against Butler and Notre Dame in Miller Time. We’ll just ignore that home loss to Indiana St, okay?
I do wonder how much his support will suffer if his brother ever gets fired/sent to jail/misses the NCAAs 4 years in a row.
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MSU has had the best 21st century of any Big Ten program, there’s no doubt about that. (If we restrict it to the last decade, we’re up there with them.) But if you take Izzo away . . . what about them stands out?
I don’t know how to answer that question. Izzo has been their coach the entire 21st century, if you take away Izzo what is there to judge? If you take away Coach K from Duke what is there? Like I just literally don’t understand what you mean by that
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I interpret it as program attractiveness in a vacuum, minus the current coach. @jemblue let me know if I am off track. 21st century MSU ranks as highly as it does because of Izzo’s resume only, nothing that came before. Kansas without Bill Self is still Kansas. Kentucky without Cal. Even Duke without K – they were top-8 nationally in wins before he took over. Vic Bubas, Eddie Cameron (for whom the arena is named), Harold Bradley, all successful pre-K Duke coaches. MSU is one Magic season under Heathcote from being exclusively Izzo success.
Not saying that’s my take necessarily, but I think that’s the question being asked.
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Yep, that’s what I was saying.
You could add that East Lansing is in an OK location for recruiting but not incredible, the Breslin Center was once state-of-the-art but not so much anymore, and academically it’s not that prestigious.
Right now they have a coach who can tell recruits “Nearly every 4-year player for me goes to the Final Four.” But when he’s gone?
My actual take is that Izzo’s tenure has been so long and so successful that he has wrought a newer and higher floor for the program long after he retires.
I could be persuaded that it would be easier to tank post-Izzo MSU than some other programs in the B1G – namely OSU and Michigan – even though MSU has more banners. But the issue there is that we’ve already seen OSU and Michigan basketball tank at least once in our lifetimes.
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Myron Medcalf
His picks:
Archie Miller
Patrick Ewing
Richard Pitino
Cuonzo Martin
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Harold Bradley and Eddie Cameron? Those guys never even coached an African American. Bubas coached 1. That’s how long ago we’re talking. Success pre 70s is basically pointless to the potential of a program
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Magic Johnson is your answer to what MSU had before Izzo. Izzo didn’t lead them from a wilderness. I agree with this though from Boutros:
Izzo’s tenure has been so long and so successful that he has wrought a newer and higher floor for the program long after he retires.
It’s not a given, but it’ll be a far more attractive job when Izzo leaves than when he took over.
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Potential and prestige are different measurements, though.
There are just so many factors… Coaching transitions can be rough. Michigan only having 2 rotation player transfers (both a year after) is kind of incredible. But MSU rolling with Fife probably limits this. I’d have to assume the more people that get kept, the more players that stay (in general). If they hire someone with high major or good mid major experience, that person will probably want to bring their own people and you might see notable transfers and a tougher job to succeed at first. If this new coach has a couple down years, does what Tom Izzo turned the program into survive? Or does MSU get overshadowed quickly? I’m not sure. I’m very ready for this process to happen though lol
Is that what people expect from MSU after Izzo retires?
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That is my prediction. He took a demotion from HC to be Izzo’s assistant. That often signals a HCIW arrangement.
I fully expect this, yes. Don’t confuse this with me thinking this is the correct thing.
I think Tom Izzo is basically going to be de facto running the search for his replacement and will want Fife.
Here we go again, you and I agreeing on a prediction. Now Izzo will be replaced by Saddi Washington
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Between Magic’s departure (1979) and Izzo’s promotion (1995) they won one Big Ten title and made two Sweet 16s. For most of that time they were clearly in our shadow. Izzo did have one trump card when he took over - the Breslin Center at the time was considered a great facility.
I agree that he’s been there so long that you have to look at their program differently now, but I’m not buying that they’re a blueblood, and I strongly doubt that Izzo’s successor can come close to what he’s done. I’d be fine with them promoting Fife, who has a sub-.500 career record as coach.
Checked to see how Michigan has stacked up since Howard took over. Best in the Big Ten and 5th overall. (And two years with the best recruiting class in the conference.)
I know I made the Fife prediction above but on the other hand Izzo is not that old. He’s 11 years younger than Boeheim, 9 years younger than K, 5 years younger than Roy, etc. The longer he stays and MSU performs at a high level the bluer their blood gets.
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OSU as the sixth-best program in the country over that span just makes no sense to me. I know the numbers don’t lie, I just don’t get it.