6 NCAAT wins every 3 seasons… good, fair, barometer.
Just agree to disagree, success is tied to recruiting more than any other factor in my opinion. And our staff has not done a very good job in that regard over the past 2 years and I think it is reasonable to expect more.Just curious, what would you do differently?
Recruit better players
MattD, you said 6 NCAAT wins per year was a fair barometer. He’s playing on house money this year.
He may be playing with house money in terms of this year. The concern I’ve had over the past 6-8 months is that this year will be a reoccurring theme because we will most likely lose our best player (though I’m not sold on Caris being a first rd pick) and the remaining roster just isn’t that good if we’re being honest. In the words of an informed fan, we will be ‘mindnumbingly underwhelming’ next year
We are recruiting better players - that’s why it’s been tougher to land top guys. We had to beat out Cincinnati for Trey Burke; we have to beat out Duke and UK (among others) for Thornton.
As far as next year’s roster if Levert leaves, we’ll see. There is plenty of talent, we just need these guys to develop. Chatman has talent but is raw, same with Doyle, and Donnal showed me something today.
Sure, it would be great if we had enough talent every single year to be a Final Four contender. As I’ve pointed out, that isn’t realistic. Even coaches like Calipari, Roy Williams and Jim Boeheim haven’t been able to do that.
The thing that makes me laugh the most is that MattD thinks Amaker was this great recruiter. You know why people are trying to figure out whether Michigan is a flash in the pan? Because before JB got here, we didn’t make the tourney for 10 years. So, if you want to bemoan our lack of basketball history for the past 20 years, look no further than Ellerbe, Amaker, and an athletic department that neglected basketball.
In all fairness that’s 8 years ago. Any failures we have on the court now fall squarely on the shoulders of JB. We simply need more talent. Your f4 talent would be nice narrative is laughable. True question is do we have the talent to be a .500 team overall. I’m not so sure we do
MattD, you can’t have it both ways. You often argue that we can’t compete with the likes of Duke for recruits because our success is recent and theirs has been consistent for 15-20 years. If that’s your argument, then it is absolutely relevant that the program was a non-entity under Amaker.
When you say .500 team, are you talking this year or next year? If next year, I’ll gladly take that bet. Again, our guys improve from year to year. I know your boy Amaker’s players were better as freshmen than as seniors, but that’s not what has happened under JB.
I really do think you should become a UK fan though. You think recruiting is all that matters, you refuse to acknowledge the rampant cheating that occurs for elite players, and you downplay coaching all the time. Go root for UK - that’s the perfect program for you.
MattD thought Amaker was a great recruiter? lol…
And MattD, he is playing on house money right now and that is a fact. He took Michigan to 8 NCAA Tournament wins the past two years when the barometer is 6 wins every three seasons. House money.
Not many teams have suffered the NBA attrition that Michigan has the past few years. Other than a select few blue bloods, no school would be able to overcome this attrition. I hate to bring out the T word again, but you’re making it difficult not to.
No, I don’t want to root for UK, I will root for UM because that is my AM. But, that doesn’t mean I have to love the direction the team is heading, because quite frankly I don’t. I LOVE UM football but I very much disliked Hoke as a coach, im sure most would agree. You always root for your team, but you can acknowledge the team and/or coaching is bad. Does that make one less worthy in your eyes?
We don’t need three elite players/athletes every year, but we do need 3 every 2 years in irder to stay an upper tier B10 team. If I’m being honest about it, we have exactly 3 players that I can objectively say could start on any B10 team. 2 of our starters have no business playing more than 5-10 minutes a game, and most of our bench players don’t even look to be high major D1 players.
Talented teams win, and we simply don’t have that. We are extremely slow, vertically challenged, and damn sure lack any toughness. We have soft players and that is fostered through a coach that accepts it. I took a peep in the game thread, a lot of those folks get it. Can’t win with these types of players in today’s college basketball.
By the way, it’s so funny how you’ve changed your narrative from the beginning of the year where you were full of optimism about tourney seeding, to " Im not throwing in the towel", to basically conceding this year with your “I’ll take that bet for next year” comment. Face it, this team isn’t heading in the right direction because we don’t have enough talent, and if Caris leaves, it will only get uglier.
By the way- you say I downplay coaching…well if the coaching is so great what the hell is going on out there? Jim’s and joes…that is the name of the game. Better talent = better team. A coach can’t force players to execute on the court.
MattD thought Amaker was a great recruiter? lol.......And MattD, he is playing on house money right now and that is a fact. He took Michigan to 8 NCAA Tournament wins the past two years when the barometer is 6 wins every three seasons. House money.
Not many teams have suffered the NBA attrition that Michigan has the past few years. Other than a select few blue bloods, no school would be able to overcome this attrition. I hate to bring out the T word again, but you’re making it difficult not to.
How was Tommy not a good recruiter? His players were better out of HS. If you want to say his players didn’t improve then I can accept that, but to say he couldn’t recruit is stupidity. I provided a very lengthy post concerning that very topic and id challenge anyone to refute it.
So by the accepted standards it should be 8 tourney wins every 4 years as well, no?
All jokes aside, where do you think this team will stand during thed 15-16 and 16-17 seasons. Things look like they can get very bad in my opinion, some just don’t like to accept reality. I hate to use the H word again, but you are making it very difficult
Beilein is a better recruiter than Amaker and I’ll take you seriously again when you concede that point.
Where I think things will stand in 15-16 and 16-17? Depends a lot on attrition and development. After McGary went down last year, 10-8 in the Big Ten looked like a ceiling. Three months later, that idea looked foolish. So much can change in the course of a couple months that making predictions for the 2016/2017 season is meaningless to me.
In no way, shape or form is JB a better recruiter than Tommy. Hell, even HfH, who worked under JB t WVU (at least this is what he claims) conceded that. He explicitly said JB wants all MAC guys…that told me all I needed to know. He sets the bar low…can’t win like that in my view.
You are correct, so much can change in a short time, and you are learning that the hard way right now. But, as you point out, we will let these 2 years play out, but I think you are going to be disappointed my friend. Hopefully im the fool
The 2012 class alone rivals Amaker’s entire body of work in terms of recruiting success. That isn’t counting players like Morris, Hardway, Burke Irvin, Walton, or (hopefully) Chatman.
You are such a ridiculous Amaker slappy.
The 2012 class alone rivals Amaker's entire body of work in terms of recruiting success. That isn't counting players like Morris, Hardway, Burke Irvin, Walton, or (hopefully) Chatman.You are such a ridiculous Amaker slappy.
Seriously man, you are so stuck on JB that it’s unreal. Is the man paying you? Makes it hard to have serious dialogue with you. Tommy’s 2002 class were just as good in HS and freshman in relation to 2012. Honestly though, what you and I think about that doesn’t really matter, the focus is what this team will be in the future. I look at our incoming personnel and our likely departures and I don’t like it, not one bit. But, I understand the benefit of the doubt and all, we will see what your tune is a year from now
Why does it just matter how they play as freshmen? Are you trying to say that being able to identify players with NBA talent/potential isn’t a variable in the recruiting process? Laughable. You are losing any credibility you had been gaining.
The 2012 class played huge roles in the back to back Elite 8 runs and will have produced the 4 NBA draft picks. To say that the 2002 class = 2012 class in terms of recruiting success is more than stupid. Knowing what you know now, there is NO WAY anyone would take:
Lester Abram
Amadou Ba
Graham Brown
Daniel Horton
Chris Hunter
over
Nik Stauskas
Mitch McGary
Glenn Robinson
Caris LeVert
Spike Albrecht
One class is filled with NBA talent and potential and the other was the 2002 class.
You are getting into the development argument, that’s not what we’re talking about, we’re talking about recruiting…IE which players were better in HS/had more raw talent. It would be downright stupid to say Trey Burke was better in HS in relation to Horton just because he went to the league…pure ignorance
In any event, I’ll let you win. It’s fairly obvious you want to discuss Tommy because as I’ve said before…it’s the only thing you have left. The team is awful and appears to be declining with no relief in sight in the foreseeable future
You are getting into the development argument, that's not what we're talking about, we're talking about recruiting.........IE which players were better in HS/had more raw talent. It would be downright stupid to say Trey Burke was better in HS in relation to Horton just because he went to the league.........pure ignorance
Who is saying that Burke was better in HS? Terrible deflection.
You are quite literally implying that ability to identify talent/potential is not a variable to consider when discussing recruiting. Dion Harris may have had more raw talent than Burke in HS, but knowing what we know now… you take 2011 Burke over 2003 Harris 10 times out of 10. Therefor, I consider Burke a much bigger recruiting success.
Like I said Hail, you win. This team isn’t even worth me debating you to no end at this point. We will see where you stand in a few months and down the line into the future. Hopefully all this is just a minor bump in the road and im the idiot.
You already know how I feel about the team at this point and going into next year. This disagreement was regarding Amaker vs Beilein recruiting and that isn’t going to change in a few months.