That’s basically what I’m saying here buddy, we just agree to disagree. But I’ll remind you that I’m not the one that started with the Tommy dialogue in this thread, that was LA. He does this to divert the attention (ahem…criticism of the team/JB) because that is the only thing he has left. …really not much to support his narrative at this point other than to say “well everyone else is bad too when attrition occurs” like a 6th grader. Bottom line, take it like a man and admit this team isn’t nearly as good as he/you anticipated in addition to the fact that the coaching has been poor as well.
All im saying is that our recruiting has been poor the past 2 years and that is the root of our issues. You may think its youth, and only time will tell.
I’ve already admitted that the team, to this point, is far less impressive than I was hoping/expecting. That doesn’t change the fact that you patting Amaker on the back for the same things you criticize Beilein for is biased and inconsistent.
Matt, I did say that while at WVU he wanted All MAC type players. I don’t believe that is his mentality at Michigan. I do believe Beilein thinks his system of developing players will make his recruits into much better players (much like he has done).
As everyone knows, recruiting at Michigan is different than it was at WVU. That’s one of the reasons why Beilein left WVU, he thought that he could win a national championship at UM.
Exactly, Im of the opinion that Amaker was a much better recruiter than JB. We just agree to disagree. No inconsistency or bias, Tommy’s players had more raw talent out of HS in my view. You just simply disagree
Matt, I did say that while at WVU he wanted All MAC type players. I don't believe that is his mentality at Michigan. I do believe Beilein thinks his system of developing players will make his recruits into much better players (much like he has done).
As everyone knows, recruiting at Michigan is different than it was at WVU. That’s one of the reasons why Beilein left WVU, he thought that he could win a national championship at UM.
His mentality may have changed (although the evidence may suggest otherwise), but the recent results have not. That’s all that matters to me, is whether we sign upper tier players/athletes.
Man, im looking at the raw athleticism that UK has and what they are doing to UCLA. It’s hard to argue that raw talent and athleticism isn’t a formula that works. Just roll out the ball…and the rest will take care of itself. I don’t care how skilled or experienced you are, it’s really difficult to win an individual matchup when a guy is bigger, stronger, faster and has more verticality.
I know some laughed when I said UK may go undefeated. It is VERY possible for that to happen. This team may be one of the greatest defensive teams in college basketball. That frontline is just downright overwhelming every opponent they face.
Matt, your argument is absurd. The only advantage Amaker’s recruits had was in rankings alone. That’s your only basis for saying they had more “raw talent.” When they actually took the court, only a guy like Horton would have played much for JB’s teams, and even he wasn’t nearly as good as Burke or Morris. I’d also agree bigs like Hunter and Sims (who did nothing under Amaker’s coaching) would have been good in JB’s offense.
It’s funny, you accuse me of being a homer, but you’re the exact opposite - a whiny, critical, never happy fan no matter how good things are, and always ready to say “I told you so” at the slightest bit of adversity, in addition to engaging in constant exaggerated hyperbole to make your point. I think I spreak for 90% of this board when I say your act is ridiculous.
Oh, and if Amaker got better recruits and if it’s all about recruiting, while coaching matters little, then why did Amaker’s teams never even make the tourney while JB has now made a title game and Elite Eight? Another among your many contradictory points.
Guys, let’s move the “I hate MattD” posts to the recruiting/JB philosophy thread. That’s essentially why I made the thread…to let you LA compose manifestos so I can go back and admire just how silly some of the thoughts were a year from now
LA - just ask JB to divorce his wife so you can marry him. The man can do no wrong according to you and you’ve said as much. You flat out said you admire him so much because he essentially gave you hope for our program considering where we were with the Ellerbe regime.
You say Amaker recruits wouldn’t play for JB…so what. Would JB recruits play for Tommy? No way in hell Doyle, Max,Donnal, Vogrich, Evan would have ever seen the court under Tommy. Bottom line is that Tommy’s bigs were much more talented, while JB has brought better PGs. Tommy had the advantage in overall wing talent acquisition. By the way, to say Trey or Dmo were better than Horton in HS may very well be the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard as it relates to UM basketball. That is just perplexing…
PS - I highly doubt you speak for 90% of the board considering the open thread for today’s game.
In any event, carry on, I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again…the team could lose 7 straight games (more than halfway there!!!) and finish below .500 and you are still going to be a “that’s my story and Im sticking to it” guy. You are funny
You’re right, after four years in a row of making the tourney, two Big Ten titles, a close title game loss and an Elite Eight, I’m not ready to whine and cry because we’re off to a slow start this year. It happens. I don’t think JB “can do wrong,” but I do think he’s among the best coaches in the game, and apparently so does ESPN as they ranked him #9 just a few months ago.
He’s also substantially better at every facet of coaching basketball than Tommy Amaker.
The only thing that’s funny is your constant “sky is falling” attitude toward everything. By any objective criteria (conference titles, NCAA wins, NBA players drafted) JB has done an excellent job these past few years. It’s a shame that some of our own “fans” don’t realize or appreciate that, especially after some of the lows we experienced under Ellerbe and to a lesser extent Amaker. But hey, it’s your right to be a knee jerk, fair weather fan - but just own it.
I wasn’t on this board at this time last year, after the Charlotte loss, but everyone says you were spewing the same nonsense back then.
I think Matt makes great points in regards to Beilein’s recruiting. I believe that Amaker recruited to the rankings but could never put a team truly together for long stretches. On the other hand, Beilein recruits to his system rather than to the rankings. He has clearly put together better teams and I don’t think there is any argument from anyone in regards to that.
Here is a little something for everyone to chew one:
Copied from Rivals.com: "When Lake Forest (Ill.) guard Matt Vogrich committed to Michigan, the Rivals150 guard gave coach John Beilein something he’s never had before. The 17-year head coaching veteran has never landed a pair of nationally ranked guards in the same recruiting class.
Vogrich, the No. 131-ranked player in the country, joins Darius Morris, the No. 71-ranked player in the country, in Michigan’s 2009 recruiting class.
Rivals.com national basketball recruiting analyst Jerry Meyer said he wouldn’t be surprised to see both players eventually starting for the Wolverines as freshmen next season. Vogrich will help the team because of his ability from long range as well as his intelligence in the backcourt.
“Along with being a quality player in his own right, Vogrich has the type of game that could really flourish in Michigan’s system under coach Beilein,” Meyer said. “Besides being an outstanding shooter, Vogrich also has a strong understanding of the game and can make skilled plays both with the ball and away from it. I wouldn’t be surprised to see him find his place in the lineup quite early in his career.”
Vogrich also considered Notre Dame and Stanford."
I believe UCLA offered as well. I don’t think Vogrich would’ve played anywhere in the Big 10 but he was considered a high level recruit even though he couldn’t cover the table in front of me. Coaches and experts (and us) can be wrong a lot of times too.
Ok, now tell us how low these other plays were ranked:
GRIII, McGary, Irvin, Walton, Chatman
And rankings are only a small part of the equation (MattD agrees). Being able to identify “hidden gem” type talent/potential is a key part of the equation, too. Not only has Beilein been on par with Amaker ranking wise, he has significantly outperformed Amaker in identifying potential in less heralded recruits.
Only someone pushing an agenda would overlook that fact.
Matt, your argument is absurd. The only advantage Amaker's recruits had was in *rankings* alone. That's your only basis for saying they had more "raw talent." When they actually took the court, only a guy like Horton would have played much for JB's teams, and even he wasn't nearly as good as Burke or Morris. I'd also agree bigs like Hunter and Sims (who did nothing under Amaker's coaching) would have been good in JB's offense.
It’s funny, you accuse me of being a homer, but you’re the exact opposite - a whiny, critical, never happy fan no matter how good things are, and always ready to say “I told you so” at the slightest bit of adversity, in addition to engaging in constant exaggerated hyperbole to make your point. I think I spreak for 90% of this board when I say your act is ridiculous.
This is spot on. It’s basically Guestavo 2.0 and it’s getting tiresome to read.
Beilein has never been about rankings. He wants to find the best fit for his program and what he is looking for eliminates a lot kids right off the bat.
Michigan has clearly struggled with this year because guys haven’t lived up to the expectations that the media (and us) has given them. They are extremely young (Yes, Kentucky is as well but they have more upperclassmen than they have had since Cal has been there) and have dealt with a few injuries to key guys. Not a good combo. They just haven’t put things together. Hell, MSU just lost Texas Southern. It happens.
Can Michigan recruit with the best of the best in the nation? Maybe, maybe not. They are trying and have been on a few guys for longer than normal, especially in the 2016 class. They recruited Devin Booker since he was in 8th grade and it didn’t pay off, while UK recruited him for a few months.
Every kid and family is different, sometimes we forget that.
Even though Beilein has never been about rankings, he has still recruited as good or better than Amaker by rankings. He also has recruited significantly better in the aspect of finding underanked players with stud potential. It’s actually pretty laughable that this is even up for debate. There’s one in every crowd, though.
Walton was a Top 10 PG
Irvin was a 5 Star on Rivals I believe
Chatman was a 5 Star on Scout and believed to be headed to Arizona
Levert…well…we hit a homerun there with a 1st round draft pick
We didn’t put anyone in the draft for YEARS then we toss out DMo, Burke, Mitch, Stauskas, Glenn…
DJ and Donnal were Top 100 players.
UConn’s coming off a National Title season and they’re sitting at 4-4.
Kentucky, followed up their National Title season by missing the NCAA and getting bumped in the 1st round of NIT.
We lost a bunch of players this year. Growing pains.
Recruiting is a what have you done for me lately business. Most of the guys you mention were signed years ago. Chatman, Wilson and Donnal all appear to have been ranked way too high or are major late bloomers. In either case, we simply have not replaced the talent lost Over the last couple years in either the 2014 or 2015 classes and 2016 looks like it could easily be another swing and miss year. That is a problem no matter how good the coaches are at developing talent.
Also you are once again comparing apples to hand grenades. Michigan is not Uconn or Kentucky. When they have a down year it is simply that, a down year, because they have the recruiting chops to go out and reload every year or two.
JB and his staff have not yet proven the same. If they land some big time guys in 2016 that will help, but we are a long way from that.
I'll say this JB might be able to buy some time to develop because in my honest opinion Caris isn't worthy of a 1st round pick. He's a very good catch and shoot player, and very mediocre at all other things as a lead guard.
Does Bo Ryan get more credit than John Beilein because he was unable to get Dekker and Kaminsky into the league until after their Jr and Sr seasons? Bo Ryan hasn’t had to deal with any attrition.
Here is your argument in a nutshell - let’s pout because life isn’t fair for JB…other coaches don’t have to deal with attrition so why should he?
Give me a damn break, that’s 6th grade nonsense. Guess what, life isn’t fair, that’s why you plan ahead. In this particular case that translates to recruiting better players in the event that you lose players to the extent your team doesn’t experience a drop off in production.
No matter what your logic is, there is simply no excuse. Our incoming personnel simply isn’t on the same stratosphere in terms of talent, and JB shoulders that blame. Recruit better and you don’t incur these problems. The man had 5 incoming recruits, and not a single player has made a significant impact…that isn’t going to cut it
It wouldn’t have to cut it if he wasn’t so good at getting his top tier talent into the NBA. It isn’t an excuse. I’m saying that we shouldn’t DEMAND that John Beilein, at a B-list program, recruits 150% - 200% the number of top tier players as other good coaches (Izzo, Ryan, etc.). Beilein is a top 10-15 coach at a top 10-15 program and should be expected to land the same number of top tier players as other top 10-15 programs. Since 2012, how many coaches have landed more top tier players than Beilein? Not many.
Wait, so are we a B list program or a top 10-15 program? I Am confused.
Same thing. I consider A list programs to be the top 5 to 10 programs in the country. Michigan is a B list program in the next tier down.