you can have all the skill in the world, but if the defender checking you is faster, stronger, and more agile..............life is going to be rough no matter how skilled. On the other hand, if you have a decisive athletic advantage on the defender, it doesn' take much to get around him no matter how good of an angle the defender has...........the defender simply can't move/react quick enough
And if you have truly elite athleticism at the NBA level, then skill development will determine whether you are Jordan/Bryant or Carter/McGrady.
The Vince Carters of the world certainly aren’t struggling to put food on the table, but also won’t have much of a legacy (outside of a dunk contest, maybe). Just depends on what you want out of life.
How does legacy impact this dialogue? Legacy is just code word for ‘how many rings do you have?’
Barkey and Malone don’t have legacies in the same mold as Bryant, MJ, Bird, but they were great players…top 25 of all time
If development didn't matter and athleticism trumped all, then Kwame Brown and Sebastian Telfair would be two of the best players in the world right now
On the opposite end, if development/skill trumped all, Trey Burke would be a halfway decent role player right now.
exactly…like everything else in the world there is some kind of middle ground
Not really, if you elite athleticism, you don’t need skill. Westbrook, Dwight Howard, DeAndre Jordan, Blake Griffin…these are all guys with no skill, but are among the top 25 players in the world. The clearest way I can explain is this…you can have all the skill in the world, but if the defender checking you is faster, stronger, and more agile…life is going to be rough no matter how skilled. On the other hand, if you have a decisive athletic advantage on the defender, it doesn’ take much to get around him no matter how good of an angle the defender has…the defender simply can’t move/react quick enough
That’s true if you are talking about vast differences of athleticism, you are talking in extremes. But there is such a gradient, that if you are slightly less athletic I’m sure having a ton of skill will make up for that. I don’t watch much NBA, but one example I can think of was Leonard doing a pretty good job of shutting down LeBron in the finals.
Leonard is an elite athlete himself…that doesn’t really bode well for your argument.
but not at the level of LeBron, which is why I’m saying there is a gradient of athleticism. Clearly for those at the top being skilled isn’t as important as it is for those at the bottom. But there is always going to be someone nipping at your heels.
I’m going to get crushed for this, but Leonard is every bit the athlete Lebron is, perhaps even more so in some lateral agility areas. LBJ is just about 40 pounds heavier. Just name one player other than Leonard that can guard Lebron and Durant, and still be effective on the offensive end. Hate the Spurs, but love Kawhi, that dude is legit.
If development didn't matter and athleticism trumped all, then Kwame Brown and Sebastian Telfair would be two of the best players in the world right now
On the opposite end, if development/skill trumped all, Trey Burke would be a halfway decent role player right now.
exactly…like everything else in the world there is some kind of middle ground
Not really, if you elite athleticism, you don’t need skill. Westbrook, Dwight Howard, DeAndre Jordan, Blake Griffin…these are all guys with no skill, but are among the top 25 players in the world. The clearest way I can explain is this…you can have all the skill in the world, but if the defender checking you is faster, stronger, and more agile…life is going to be rough no matter how skilled. On the other hand, if you have a decisive athletic advantage on the defender, it doesn’ take much to get around him no matter how good of an angle the defender has…the defender simply can’t move/react quick enough
That’s true if you are talking about vast differences of athleticism, you are talking in extremes. But there is such a gradient, that if you are slightly less athletic I’m sure having a ton of skill will make up for that. I don’t watch much NBA, but one example I can think of was Leonard doing a pretty good job of shutting down LeBron in the finals.
Leonard is an elite athlete himself…that doesn’t really bode well for your argument.
but not at the level of LeBron, which is why I’m saying there is a gradient of athleticism. Clearly for those at the top being skilled isn’t as important as it is for those at the bottom. But there is always going to be someone nipping at your heels.
I’m going to get crushed for this, but Leonard is every bit the athlete Lebron is, perhaps even more so in some lateral agility areas. LBJ is just about 40 pounds heavier. Just name one player other than Leonard that can guard Lebron and Durant, and still be effective on the offensive end. Hate the Spurs, but love Kawhi, that dude is legit.
I was literally in the process of writing the same thing. Add in that Lebron has lost a step over the past year or so as well
Darius Miles is another one, do we really have to go through a list of all the tall, athletic high draft picks that haven’t developed in the past 25 years? Athleticism is a prerequisite to superstardom, but there’s a litany of big guys who can jump out of the gym. That alone doesn’t cut it at the NBA level.
Darius Miles is another one, do we really have to go through a list of all the tall, athletic high draft picks that haven't developed in the past 25 years? Athleticism is a prerequisite to superstardom, but there's a litany of big guys who can jump out of the gym. That alone doesn't cut it at the NBA level.
DMiles is actually the cautionary tale for the superior athlete that doesn't develop beyond that. When he got hurt, his game couldn't survive without the explosiveness. See also, D. Rose, though I am hoping Derrick makes it all the way back. He should have spent his almost 2 years off working to be a knockdown shooter though.
Did Aaron Harrison benefit from Kentucky? He’s big, athletic, but he can’t shoot (not good for a SG). He and his brother need skill development to get to where they want to go, probably would have been better served playing for someone like Beilein.
If development didn't matter and athleticism trumped all, then Kwame Brown and Sebastian Telfair would be two of the best players in the world right now
On the opposite end, if development/skill trumped all, Trey Burke would be a halfway decent role player right now.
exactly…like everything else in the world there is some kind of middle ground
Not really, if you elite athleticism, you don’t need skill. Westbrook, Dwight Howard, DeAndre Jordan, Blake Griffin…these are all guys with no skill, but are among the top 25 players in the world. The clearest way I can explain is this…you can have all the skill in the world, but if the defender checking you is faster, stronger, and more agile…life is going to be rough no matter how skilled. On the other hand, if you have a decisive athletic advantage on the defender, it doesn’ take much to get around him no matter how good of an angle the defender has…the defender simply can’t move/react quick enough
Yes. There are guys that are really athletic with little skill that are currently among the top 25 players in the league. And if those players had well-developed skill sets, they could be among the best of all-time.
There are guys with limited athleticism (relative to other NBA players, of course) that are among the greatest of all time: Duncan, Magic, Bird, to name a few.
How does legacy impact this dialogue? Legacy is just code word for 'how many rings do you have?'
Barkey and Malone don’t have legacies in the same mold as Bryant, MJ, Bird, but they were great players…top 25 of all time
That’s not in fact how I mean legacy. Barkley is a good example…he is NOT the athlete that Malone is, but has an equal (at worst) legacy.
When I say it, I’m referring to “top x players ever” either in total or by position.
I had to stop when you said ‘Barkley is not the athlete’…are you kidding me? Dude could jump out of the gym and had the strength of a bull at 6’4. Probably one of the most athletic players in history.
If development didn't matter and athleticism trumped all, then Kwame Brown and Sebastian Telfair would be two of the best players in the world right now
As somebody that suffered through years of watching Kwame Brown, I can confidently tell you he wasn’t an elite athlete by any stretch. Strong yes, but elite athlete, not by any means.
Yeah, the examples were a little screwy, but I got the point he was trying to make. More like Gerald Green, James White, Tyrus Thomas or JaVale McGee. All great athletes middling at best NBA careers. Kwame was/is a strong dude, but he never progressed fundamentally beyond that not to mention being mentally destroyed by MJ.
Gerald Green has actually turned into a pretty nice player. And I will admit, it is due to development of skill.
Russell Westbrook, DeAndre Jordan, and Blake Griffin are all freaks athletically. One thing is certain is that all three of them have expanded their games since getting to the NBA. Yes, they use their athleticism to make them successful but they are where they are now because they have worked on their game and not just their athleticism.
Back in the WVU days, I remember Darris Nichols being extremely happy that Darren Collison was out and that he got to match up with Westbrook instead before the WVU-UCLA game. Imagine that thinking now.
Guys that are freaks athletically can certainly get by on that athleticism early in their career but they won’t last unless that develop other parts of their game. Tony Parker really developed his jumpsuit (or pull-up jumper) and now teams can’t back off his anymore. Ricky Rubio still can’t shoot and he won’t be the player he is capable of being until he can.
I had to stop when you said 'Barkley is not the athlete'..........are you kidding me? Dude could jump out of the gym and had the strength of a bull at 6'4. Probably one of the most athletic players in history.
You tell us all the time that there is much more to athleticism than one attribute (because while Barkley is certainly strong as a bull, I doubt he was stronger than Malone, which is the comparison I made).
Anyway, we don’t need to keep this up…it seems plenty of others agree with me, and I think you’re arguing a slightly different point anyway.
These arguments are interesting but get far too combative…of course there is a middle ground. And to suggest Westbrook, Griffin, Howard and Jordan have ‘no skill’ seems strange to me. Or even the idea that you don’t need skill, seems even more odd.
It’s all about balance IMO…certainly, you prefer a player to have unteachable traits…height, athleticism, length…but those traits alone rarely equate to success. Even the guys mentioned in this thread…their success isn’t 100% because of their physical gifts…they’ve all learned to develop skills that will help them maximize their physical talents.
In a perfect world, you prefer the unteachable stuff…but those guys aren’t as attainable, so when you have to compromise, you try and find some combination that can fit into your culture and help you win.