On 2015 Recruiting, Our Style of Play, And The Need For Big Men

First, as I look at our potential roster in 2015, we’re going to need an infusion of wing scoring. I do not think Stauskas will play four years. Indeed, we will be lucky if he’s back next fall, as I think he’s going to project to be a late first/early second round pick this year. But that’s a different discussion.

Heading into 2015, I see three players (Irvin, Levert, Chatman) to man the shooting guard and small forward positions. Given the type of offense we run, I think we need to grab at least two talented wing recruits in 2015. Fortunately, we are in on a number of players, like Coleman, Kennard, PJ Dozier (who I think can play the two), and there seem to be some Plan B guys emerging too. Perhaps Eric Davis can also play the two, though I am not sure how interested he is in staying in state. I think wing recruiting has to be the priority, and will be.

At the point, I’m sure we would happily take Brunson, and we would probably play Davis/Dozier at point if we can’t get Brunson and can get 1-2 more wings.

As far as the big men, here is how I see it:

  1. If we are in position to land a Diamond Stone, Stephen Zimmerman, or Elijah Thomas, of course you do it. That’s a no-brainer. And of course you continue recruiting those guys, unless you know for sure there’s no chance of getting them. With that said, I’ll make two points about 5-star big men: (1) most of them end up staying one year in college, so you don’t build a program around guys like that - they are more the icing on the cake than a foundation; (2) some of these guys are simply guys we can’t recruit, because they come with price tags. When you see Josh Jackson head to Kentucky or Kansas in 2016, for example, keep that in mind. McGary was a rare get - he was good friends with Novak, he’s got a stable, two parent family that isn’t looking for a handout, and he seems to genuinely enjoy the college experience. Not many five star bigs have that mindset.

  2. Once you get outside the realm of five star big men - the type that can both score and play great defense - like a McGary, or this year an Embiid - usually you’re talking about kids that have some strong attributes, but lack other skills. With our coaches, we seem to prefer guys with skill (Doyle, Donnal, Wilson) over guys who are athletic, but lack skill (Amir Williams, for example - though we did offer him, or a Jaylen Johnson, though again we were interested). Much of the debate on this board now seems to be focused on this issue - many people believe we need athletic, defensive-oriented big men, as opposed to the type we’re recruiting.

  3. I’m not sure I agree with that. I think most of our defensive issues over the years have involved undersized fours guarding bigger teams. For example, Novak and Robinson. Even then, when we played Florida in the tourney last year, Erik Murphy (a skilled four with about 2-3 inches on Robinson) did absolutely nothing. In college, the great big men normally don’t stay for more than a year. You don’t typically need a huge shot blocking presence because Patrick Ewing (for example) will score 30 on you if you don’t have that. Over the past 5-6 years, the only bigs that I remember really having big offensive games against us were guys like Sullinger, Blake Griffin, and Cody Zeller - all five star guys. (And, keep in mind, we recruited Zeller, all of the Plumlee kids, Payne, etc. - just didn’t get them). I think controlling the glass is a far bigger issue for us than worrying about some superstar center going for 30 points on us. That rarely happens.

  4. What I see right now is that by 2015, we will have the size to match up with most teams. Wilson and Donnal have way more height than Novak and Robinson. Those guys, and Doyle, will be able to match up pretty well with other bigs when it comes to size.

  5. Now, will we lack athletic shotblockers? Probably. Is that a huge deal? I’m not overly convinced it is. Again, if you can get a kid like a Zimmerman, who projects to be great on both ends of the court, that’s a no-brainer and I’m sure our coaches will continue recruiting Zimmerman unless they have reason to think they have zero shot. But does it make sense to sacrifice offense to get a guy like an Amir Williams, or Jaylen Johnson? Do you have to have a guy like that to win big?

  6. Personally, I don’t think you do. We made the title game last year without a great shotblocking presence. McGary was a strong rebounder in the tourney, and blocked some shots, but was hardly a defensive enforcer. Zeller, for example, had a pretty easy time scoring against him when we played Indiana. When Duke won it in 2010, for example, who did they have defensively in the paint? I can’t really recall anyone special. Similarly, a team like Butler made back-to-back title games with no one. Even a UNC in 2005, when they beat Illinois (another perimeter oriented team with no real big men), they had Sean May - a great scorer down low, but not athletic at all and not a defensive presence.

  7. Think about it this way - what if you took a team loaded with great perimeter players (like we have been lately), and gave them the big men Wisconsin usually trots out there. Could you win big with that team? I would argue yes. Heck, Wisconsin usually wins a lot of games in that situation even without the perimeter stars. Similarly, what about Notre Dame’s current team? If you give them our perimeter players (Robinson, Stauskas, Levert, Irvin, Walton), and throw in their bigs (who I would argue are better than ours, especially without Mitch), do you have a really good team? I think you do.

  8. To me, the main thing here is that our big men (Donnal, Doyle, Wilson) do a few things - learn how to play great position defense, really rebound well, and of course develop on the offensive end so they are guys you have to cover. If that happens, but none of them become elite shotblockers, I think we’re fine and we’ll continue to win at a very high level.

  9. Finally, as I look back at 2011 and 2012, it just gives me that much more confidence about the guys we’ve already signed. In 2011, we turned into a great basketball team after we beat MSU on the road - blowing out Tennessee in the tourney before losing by 2 to a very good (and #1 seeded) Duke team. In 2012, we won a share of the Big Ten title with two #1 seeds (OSU and MSU). In those seasons, we used Morgan (undersized), Smote (not very tough at all), Novak (extremely undersized), and Horford (freshman in 2011, didn’t play in 2012 after getting hurt early) as our frontlines. And frankly, other than Morris, Burke and Hardaway, the supporting perimeter talent isn’t nearly what we have now. No one would argue that Douglas and Novak are as good as Robinson and Stauskas, and that’s not even counting Levert and Irvin. With that as context, I feel very good about our coaches developing Wilson, Donnal and Doyle into good big men. Are we going to be more of an offensive-oriented team that focuses more on shooting than athletic defensive play? Yep, probably so. Will that prevent us from being a top 10-20 team during the next few years? I don’t think it will.

  1. In my mind there is no doubt that Nik is back next year. Only his shooting translates to the next level at this point. Further, I think Caris catches him and by the end of next year, will project as a higher commodity at the NBA level. Either way, we will need to replace an early entrant. Luckily, 2015 is not short on big combo guards.

  2. Emblid is being talked about as a lotto pick. McGary WAS being talked about as a lotto pick. Further proof that recruiting top 100 bigmen is violatile and the lower tier 4 stars might actually be better.

  3. College isn’t the NBA. You don’t “build around” anyone. You simply out talent and out coach teams with what you have.

  4. GR3 is our best defender. I doubt Donnal can replicate that but Wilson/Chatman show promise. Perimeter defense and a shot blocking presence are clearly our biggest achilles heel. You don’t need shot blocking because of elite bigmen but because of elite guards. Chasson Randle and Quin Cook say hi!

  5. How is allocating one scholarship to a defensive big, sacrificing offense? MORE offense is the last thing we need.

  6. We made the title game because of Trey Burke. Unless Trey is walking through that door, it can’t be the litmus for what we can do without fixing the holes that Trey more than made up for…

  7. Those Duke and Carolina teams had great perimeter defense and athletic bigmen. We have neither right now.

  8. We have high end talent so of course we should in theory win at a high level but no one is questioning us being a good program but us taking the next step. 2011 was a outlier, give a team that talent and 9/10 those results wont be replicated.

Simply put, I think we will be a title contender in 2015 (assuming McGary comes back) and we have to capitalize on it by grabbing a top 100 true bigman. There are dozens of big combo guards so we should have no problem there. We have two scholarships, we do not need more than one perimeter player, unless Caris or Nik leaves.

Recruiting is such a crapshoot right now. If we could just get back to being the destination place for in-state talent, we would be right in the mix every year. This State is loaded the next few years, and in all likelihood we will struggle to get any of them. Why?

Great post LAWolverine!!!
Much agreed.

It seems like we’ll have a good shot at Cassius Winston in 2016 in the event we don’t land Thornton. I’ve read Josh Jackson will likely end up out-of-state - read into that what you will. Sounds like Davis may want to go out-of-state too, though he says he’s got strong Michigan interest. It would be one thing if we lost all these guys to MSU, but if they’re not going to MSU either, well, I can only conclude there is more there than meets the eye. Honestly, as long as we get strong recruits, I’m not too concerned where they come from. Guys like Morris, Hardaway, Burke, Stauskas, Robinson, McGary, and potentially Irvin and Walton (and who knows, maybe Levert too) are all NBA talents. The fact that only Walton is from Michigan doesn’t bother me.

You would like to think that the local kids would grow up wanting to play for UM, or at least be interested in us. It appears Davis and Winston are only plan B options if other wants are met. To have players such as James Young last year, and all the future talent ( Jackson, Davis, Winston, Bridges, and others ) appear to be cool at best towards us is disappointing. Have no problem with geography when it comes to uncovering talent, but would like to think we are some in state kids " dream school " once in awhile.

A lot of these kids now grew up watching us at our darkest hours. So that in-state love wasn’t ingrained into them. However the fact that they show any interest at all is a step in the right direction. A few years back that even initial interest would probably not be there. As we continue to grow as a program and continue to put together solid seasons and tourney runs those in state kids will have grown up seeing us be successful and will be more inclined to want to be a part of that.

However I agree with LA Wolverine. As long as talent is coming to AA I couldn’t care less where it comes from. The fact that we can get talent out of state I think speaks volumes for the program. Ten years ago we weren’t getting the best talent from in or out of state.

Not sure ( maybe Dylan can confirm ) but I believe all of the aforementioned potential recruits have camped at UM at some point. With state of the art facility upgrades and a National Championship appearance last year, not too much more room for impression. Like to think we have become very viable to any recruit, regardless of the past. It’s what you’ve done lately that resonates the loudest.

2016 is so far away and not even worth thinking about. Another championship game by UofM, a subpar season at MSU and I fully expect us to be taken serious by some of these guys. I also think us having 5-6 more NBA draft picks will do a lot of talking for us.

And Caris isn’t a maybe as a draft prospect…sites like NBAdraft, ESPN and Realgm have already taken notice. He has the most NBA alluring physical profile and he is a true freshmen age wise, only being a few weeks older than Zak. Not to many 6-6, 7 ft wingspan freshmen guards as productive as him.

Agreed the what have you done for me lately resonates the loudest and that is what gets interest now. However all I meant was our history is what determines the “growing up wanting to play for Michigan mentality.” As our success continues kids will have that mentality more and more.

2016 is so far away and not even worth thinking about. Another championship game by UofM, a subpar season at MSU and I fully expect us to be taken serious by some of these guys. I also think us having 5-6 more NBA draft picks will do a lot of talking for us.

And Caris isn’t a maybe as a draft prospect…sites like NBAdraft, ESPN and Realgm have already taken notice. He has the most NBA alluring physical profile and he is a true freshmen age wise, only being a few weeks older than Zak. Not to many 6-6, 7 ft wingspan freshmen guards as productive as him.

Have to disagree here, Caris is a tweener to the extent that he has a SG body, but isn't a good outside shooter, and his court vision/passing doesn't warrant him being a PG right now. Can't really say he has the "physical profile" right now either, needs to gain literally 30 lbs.

You are enamored with length, and that is a good trait, but I’m of the opinion that athleticism means a bit more, but I’m sure we’d both agree that having both is ideal.

Got to give the staff credit for going after national high profile recruits. Chatman was a real catch. It’s just so much easier to form relationships with in-state talent. Would like to think we have the edge there. Guaranteed the coaches ARE thinking about 2016, and laying the groundwork for potential success with any identified prospect. This State is coming back in terms of D1 talent, and many recruits subsequently reference “early” relationships as the key. Wouldn’t it be nice if we end up being the destination point? This is the State that has produced Rice, Mills, Vaught, Joubert, Traylor, Taylor, Blanchard and dozens more. Can’t afford to keep missing out on the future stars.

Have to disagree here, Caris is a tweener to the extent that he has a SG body, but isn't a good outside shooter, and his court vision/passing doesn't warrant him being a PG right now. Can't really say he has the "physical profile" right now either, needs to gain literally 30 lbs.

You are enamored with length, and that is a good trait, but I’m of the opinion that athleticism means a bit more, but I’m sure we’d both agree that having both is ideal.

He is 19 MattD.

I’ve been on the record as saying that he needs to improve his catch and shoot ability. You don’t think that’s possible with another off season with Stauskas?

I agree that he needs to learn how to read the defense better and kick it out when they collapse on him, but being able to put pressure on a defense like that isn’t a common skill in itself. This is his first year getting starter minutes, you don’t think the game will slow down for him?

He has grown 2-3 inches this past year and is 19. Same as the Zach LaVine kid (V is capital in both their names lol). You saw how much muscle he added this offseason. You don’t think once he settles into his body that the weight won’t be put on? 30 lbs is a huge exaggeration, I’d say 15 at most and he is good. Wiry strong players don’t seem to have a problem in the NBA.

And north-south speed isn’t athleticism? Lateral quickness isn’t athleticism? A great first step isn’t athleticism? The slinky body contortion he uses to split defenders isn’t athleticism? Only thing he really lacks is strength and springs but length makes up for that.

Experiment. Go find true freshmen in the 2013 rankings who didn’t get held back. Go look up there production and compare to what LeVert is doing. We got a future star on our hands. JB is a great talent developer.

Louis Williams, Jamal Crawford, Antonio Daniels, Larry Hughes, Michael Carter WIlliams, Shaun Livingston. Guys I see elements of in Caris. Not sure how people can be higher on Zak or Derrick. I remember when people said GR3 was going to be a lower pick than McGary LOL. The same is true of Caris and Nik. One has tool that translate easier. Nik will have to figure it out like JJ Reddick and Parson since there are 20 Fredettes or Novaks for every one versatile shooter who makes it.

I do think caris has good vertical speed, lateral movement is above average, excellent change of direction with his feet especially with the ball. To compare nik to JJ and Jimmer is nothing short of ridiculous though. Those guys have nowhere near the ball handling or passing ability relative to nik, not to mention nik has 4 inches on both of those guys.

I think Nik has more potential in the NBA, he is a man with a position. Nik has prototype 2 guard size, shoots the ball way better than caris, passes the ball much better, has better vertical jumping ability, better ball handling. Caris has superior change of direction/footwork and lateral movement but that’s about it. Caris has better vertical speed but at the nba level it’s nothing special.

I do think caris has good vertical speed, lateral movement is above average, excellent change of direction with his feet especially with the ball. To compare nik to JJ and Jimmer is nothing short of ridiculous though. Those guys have nowhere near the ball handling or passing ability relative to nik, not to mention nik has 4 inches on both of those guys.

I think has more potential in the NBA, he is a man with a position. Nik has prototype 2 guard size, shoots the ball way better than caris, passes the ball much better, has better vertical jumping ability, better ball handling. Caris has superior change of direction/footwork and lateral movement but that’s about it. Caris has better vertical speed but at the nba level it’s nothing special.

Nik is not a better ballhandler than Caris lol. Nik is more economical with his dribble but he isn’t pulling off some of the Jamal Crawford esque ballhandling I’ve seen Caris do against teams like Arizona and Duke.

I also don’t think a 19 year old Nik Stauskas is a better leaper than Caris. He hasn’t even fully grown into his new frame lol.

Also, Nik will not be able to get past the first defender to use his “better passing ability”. Once again, 19 year old Nik Stauskas wasn’t even displaying this kind of vision. Caris is our third best playmaker after Spike and Nik and after another year of learning how to use his gifts, he has a higher cieling in that regard, no? Nik also doesn’t have any kind of length.

You keep looking at him like he is one and done. He doesn’t have a position yet but another year or two and I have no doubt in my mind he is a pro.

Nik is a better ball handler, caris has better footwork/breaks, there is a difference. Quite frankly, that’s not even close.

I think nik does have the ability to break a defender down in the league because they have to respect his shot at all times, and he has the leaping ability and size to finish. I don’t think caris has that type of ability. Caris is more adept at GETTING to the rim, but finishing is a much different story. Im not enamored with caris as an nba prospect at this point, but hopefully im proven wrong.

That being said, I do like caris’ game, he prefers going to the rim, which gives us nice balance to compliment the outside shooting. His decision making can leave something to be desired, but as you say that is expected for a guy that is really getting his first opportunity to create off pick and roll. I have to say though that outside of the second half vs duke caris has struggled mightily against legit comp. Dylan has suggested the scouting report is out on caris, which may be true, I really think he has some confidence issues at this point. He looked very scared/tentative at Minn. I think a tear drop/floater would serve caris well in the future.

I guess the next couple of years will prove one of us right and the other not so much. I personally think you aren’t factoring in age and the recent height growth in the equation. And when you say legit competition, I’m going to guess you means scoring because he usually has some of the best all around games against those teams. YOu also forgot the second half of Arizona somehow?

Go lookup the 2013 recruit rankings and find guys who are 19 this calendar year who are fully realized NBA prospects. That list is short. Caris has to rank up there.

Caris needs a lot of things that would help his offensive arsenal, a floater most definitely, and I trust him to add it with another off season.

Let’s put it this way, I pray that you’re a prophet and im a fool. I do think caris will be a 2nd team all big ten type player next year with a few more lbs. I personally think he has the most potential at the PG spot.

If I had one wish with caris though, it would be for him to have more awareness and energy on D, that is my biggest complaint with him thus far.

A few comments.

First, Guestavo, I argued that if you cannot get five star big men, you have to build around the type of big men you want to recruit. You can go after guys who you like from a skill perspective (like Doyle and Donnal), or more athletic guys with limited skills (like an Amir Williams), but you won’t be getting both because the guys that combine great athleticism and skill are the five star guys who stay 1-2 years.

Your response was: “College isn’t the NBA. You don’t ‘build around’ anyone. You simply out talent and out coach teams with what you have.”

I don’t think you could be more wrong.

Big men take a lot of time to develop. I looked at the Rivals’ top 150 for 2013, and specifically the guys who were rated ahead of Donnal (the #111 rated recruit). First, only some of the five star guys are really having a big impact - Randle, Gordon, Vonleh, Bobby Portis, Austin Nichols. There are others who aren’t great yet. Jarrell Martin of LSU averages 8.0 and 3.5, shooting .431. Lawrence from Cincinnati averages 4.2 and 3.3, shooting .382. And while they play on a loaded team, Dakari Johnson and Marcus Lee of Kentucky both average 3.6 points per game.

But, stepping outside the five star guys (so, players ranked from #28-#111 in Rivals), I found 21 guys who were 6-8 and taller. Of those, only two guys (Mika from BYU and Jones from Vanderbilt) averaged 10 points a game or better (Mika at 13.9, Jones at 10.3). And only 5 more guys averaged 7 points per game or more (Meeks at UNC, Williams at WVU, Shepard at TCU, Egbunu at S. Florida, and Henry at South Carolina). And of those guys, Williams is shooting .434 from the floor, and Shepard is shooting .412 - so those are two bigs who are just getting a lot of touches, not two guys who are efficient and would really help a contending team like Michigan.

Of the 21 guys in the range of #28-#111 in the rankings, 14 of them average less than 7 points per game, and a full 10 of them average less than four points per game.

In short, your average four star big man is not an instant impact player, and is a guy who is likely going to be in your program for four years.

The argument for recruiting “athletic” big guys, who are good defenders, is an argument for recruiting guys like Amir Williams and DeShonte Riley.

Here are Williams’ first three years at OSU:

Points: 1.7, 3.5, 9.7
Rebounds: 2.1, 3.9, 6.5
Blocks: 0.8, 1.4, 2.0

Obviously, he’s getting better every year and by his junior year, has developed into a pretty nice big man, albeit fairly limited offensively (9.7 points, 6.5 rebounds, 2.0 blocks).

Riley’s numbers:

Points: 5.4, 4.0, 4.1
Rebounds: 5.2, 6.1, 4.3
Blocks: 1.5, 2.0, 3.2

Another guy in this class of player (athletic big, not real skilled offensively) would be a guy like Jalen Reynolds, averaging 3 points, 3 rebounds, 0.6 blocks, and shooting .552 as a freshman for Xavier.

On the other side of the ledger, take a guy like a Garrick Sherman. He averaged 1.9 points a game as an MSU freshman, as a junior at ND last year was still scoring only 7 points per game, but as a senior this year is now averaging 14.4 points and 7.6 rebounds per game.

I think recruits like Donnal and Doyle fit the profile of a Sherman, or a Nate Lubick, or a Travis or David Ware. These are bigs who, by the time they are juniors and seniors, should be able to score 10-14 points a game, and grab 6-8 rebounds, but who will not likely be athletic shotblockers.

And that’s the contrast I’m trying to illustrate. When you are unable to land five star big men, then you pick your poison - some guys are athletic, others are skilled, but you won’t find both. And any time one of these players does suddenly develop both parts of his game, he’ll be gone. For example, if Amir Williams averaged 15 a game this year instead of 10, he would be a first round pick and gone. (Along those lines, MSU was very lucky to get Payne back for his senior year).

If we pick the skilled players over the athletes - and so far we have with Donnal and Doyle, though I think Wilson is a nice athlete - I have no problem with that. I think the main thing we need to concern ourselves with is having enough size to defend and rebound against big teams. Donnal and Doyle will give us that, and so should Wilson if he adds enough weight.

Finally, on this whole LeVert versus Stauskas argument . . .

You argue that Stauskas can only shoot. I disagree, as I think he’s been taking the ball to the basket very effectively this year, and he’s been doing a great job of running the pick and roll and finding the open perimeter shooter.

Even if you were right, Stauskas is an elite shooter, and making the NBA usually requires a player to be great in one area. He is a great shooter. Even if he “only” turns out to be as good as JJ Redick, or maybe a Mike Miller, those guys have had long NBA careers and have both been very valuable players (Redick now, Miller in the past) because they are great shooters.

I get the age argument with LeVert, and it’s the best argument you have. He has improved leaps and bounds since last year. With that said, I see some real flaws in his game. First, he is not a great shooter by any means - when he’s wide open he can make it, but he often still struggles with a man guarding him closely. Second, his court vision still leaves a lot to be desired. Right now, he puts his head down and drives to the rim much the same way Manny Harris used to do it. Third, while it is true he has a ton of length and quickness, he is a below average defender, and I think he has poor defensive instincts. Those are hard to teach. I do think he has a shot at the NBA, but I don’t see any way he surpasses Stauskas by next year or, really, ever.

As far as LeVert versus Irvin, the difference that I see is while Irvin might be older, when you compare each player’s first year against college competition, Irvin is significantly better. And Irvin is also a significantly better shooter - he’s shooting the three right now at 43%, which is outstanding, and he has really nice lift on his shot, so he’ll be able to get it off with little problem. LeVert does not have much lift on his shot (though he has been able to create separation with the dribble and step back), so I think he struggles more with a guy right on him.

I would agree LeVert is a far better driver, but I also think that’s in part because all we’re asking Irvin to do at the moment is spot up and shoot. I think he will be a capable driver when he has to do it.

But like MattD, I hope you’re right.

  1. I’m not advocating for instant impact bigmen. I am asking that we recruit a bigmen who can anchor the paint after a few years of development. I’m not saying I disapprove of Donnal and Doyle, in fact, the athletic bigman type should compliment their skillsets. Think Tyson Chandler and Dirk.

2.It’s too early to look at the 2013 class. Literally 10% of that class is of any utility right now. Caris should be in the class of 2013 if he was correctly classified. He is in the top 5 % of production for that class.

  1. Amir is averaging 9.7 ppg right now. How much did McGary average? You expect Donnal or Doyle to average significantly more?

  2. Is Garrick Sherman’s team ranked or is Amir Williams team ranked? Production on bad teams is inflated. Garrick Sherman doesn’t average double digits on a title contending team.

  3. It isn’t an either or situation. We have a team for a reason. Not every bigman has to be skilled. We can afford to use ONE scholarship on a true post big man.

  4. You’re comparing a 17-18 year old LeVert to a 18-19 Zak Irvin how genuine. Ask Shabazz Muhammad how big a year difference is in basketball. And like I said before, every JJ Reddick has 10 Adam Morrisons. And how is a 19 year old who grades as our third best passer a poor decision maker? Can he improve and read the defense better? Sure. Is he further along than the other 19 year old PG on our roster Walton? Definitely. Nik wasn’t a better passer at the same age. Like I said to MattD, we will see who turns out as a better pro. I think Nik will have a great career in Europe personally. I look forward to watching him in the Olympics against Team USA.