This discussion was created from comments split from: Jaylen Brown - Will Likely Use OV for UM.
His AAU coach is certainly buying it. http://michigan.scout.com/story/1530610-no-telling-what-beilein-could-do-with-brown?s=162Obviously Jaylen is going to the league, no one is disputing that. But I think Michigan still has plenty to sell in skill development.
His AAU coach says he’s buying, which is distinct from actually buying it. What AAU coach is going to explicitly say ‘yeah, we’ll take a pass’…exactly.
Just don’t think skill development is something that is enticing to elite, one and done, type players. The number 1 thing that can help them is just giving them the ball and getting the hell out of there way in my opinion.
Doesn’t it still depend on the player? I mean for the little I know about Brown is that he is not the typical high level prospect that just thinks that he already has all the tools, and it’s just about showcasing it for the league. He seems to legitimately want to develop as a player, and he doesn’t care about being treated as a king.
Again, this is my personal feeling towards him, and this might not be true. Only he and his parents know that. If he only cares about exposing his current talent, then I agree, Michigan is not the place for him.
But if he does truly care about getting better, I think we have as much a shot as anyone.I certainly think there is some merit to your contention, just don’t know how much better you can get in 6 months…which is why I think the development angle is irrelevant.
You make a good point that 6 months is not that much to show drastic improvements. But should we factor in the possibility of camp Sanderson to that? Because that could make a big difference for him if he would come during the summer.
I hope the staff advertised that for him, because it’s a solid argument if he truly cares about getting better.
There is a lot of money difference between picks 2 and 4, for example, or 4 and 8 (over 2 million dollars over the first two years). There is also the factor of getting the options picked up, getting the biggest 2nd contract possible, etc. Go back through the draft and it’s evident there’s more at stake than just getting drafted and getting to the league. Similarly, if you look back, there are a lot of top 5 or top 10 recruits who don’t go to the league after a year (including 3 from KY alone from 2013). Whether or not Michigan can get Brown his highest draft slot and prepare him best for the NBA is a fair question, but they have a pretty good case, including getting plenty of exposure. And any high recruit not asking that question is doing himself a disservice.
His AAU coach is certainly buying it. http://michigan.scout.com/story/1530610-no-telling-what-beilein-could-do-with-brown?s=162Obviously Jaylen is going to the league, no one is disputing that. But I think Michigan still has plenty to sell in skill development.
His AAU coach says he’s buying, which is distinct from actually buying it. What AAU coach is going to explicitly say ‘yeah, we’ll take a pass’…exactly.
Just don’t think skill development is something that is enticing to elite, one and done, type players. The number 1 thing that can help them is just giving them the ball and getting the hell out of there way in my opinion.
Doesn’t it still depend on the player? I mean for the little I know about Brown is that he is not the typical high level prospect that just thinks that he already has all the tools, and it’s just about showcasing it for the league. He seems to legitimately want to develop as a player, and he doesn’t care about being treated as a king.
Again, this is my personal feeling towards him, and this might not be true. Only he and his parents know that. If he only cares about exposing his current talent, then I agree, Michigan is not the place for him.
But if he does truly care about getting better, I think we have as much a shot as anyone.I certainly think there is some merit to your contention, just don’t know how much better you can get in 6 months…which is why I think the development angle is irrelevant.
You make a good point that 6 months is not that much to show drastic improvements. But should we factor in the possibility of camp Sanderson to that? Because that could make a big difference for him if he would come during the summer.
I hope the staff advertised that for him, because it’s a solid argument if he truly cares about getting better.
He’s already a freak athlete, just don’t know how much Sanderson can do in that limited amount of time since he won’t even get to campus until late June at earliest.
I think the bigger selling point if we're being honest is this - we will give you the damn ball and let you do whatever you want for one year.
Given that this is the antithesis of everything that Beilein is about, we most certainly did not say this. Also, the word on Brown is that he’s more team-oriented than some others with his talent.
UK, Duke, UNC and Kansas certainly won’t hand him the ball and get out of his way as loaded as those rosters are year after year. Kentucky just played Karl-Anthony Towns 20 minutes a game. I don’t buy the idea that Brown and other elite talents don’t want to get better. Their goal isn’t to make an NBA roster, it’s to be the greatest of all time, to win not 1, not 2, not 3…it’d be foolish for Michigan to not pitch development.
UK, Duke, UNC and Kansas certainly won't hand him the ball and get out of his way as loaded as those rosters are year after year. Kentucky just played Karl-Anthony Towns 20 minutes a game. I don't buy the idea that Brown and other elite talents don't want to get better. Their goal isn't to make an NBA roster, it's to be the greatest of all time, to win not 1, not 2, not 3....it'd be foolish for Michigan to not pitch development.
I am not sure this is exactly true. Duke has let Irving(when healthy), Jabari Parker dominate the ball as frosh. Kentucky let John Wall do it. Calipari isn’t doing it right now because he has a star studded lineup. Kansas let Wiggins do it. If Brown is even close to that level he will dominate the ball. I am not sure the development angle works all that well just because they’re going to be at a school for 1 year maybe 2. For example does anyone believe Devin Booker would be a 1 and done at Michigan? He looks the part at Kentucky.
UK, Duke, UNC and Kansas certainly won't hand him the ball and get out of his way as loaded as those rosters are year after year. Kentucky just played Karl-Anthony Towns 20 minutes a game. I don't buy the idea that Brown and other elite talents don't want to get better. Their goal isn't to make an NBA roster, it's to be the greatest of all time, to win not 1, not 2, not 3....it'd be foolish for Michigan to not pitch development.I am not sure this is exactly true. Duke has let Irving(when healthy), Jabari Parker dominate the ball as frosh. Kentucky let John Wall do it. Calipari isn’t doing it right now because he has a star studded lineup. Kansas let Wiggins do it. If Brown is even close to that level he will dominate the ball. I am not sure the development angle works all that well just because they’re going to be at a school for 1 year maybe 2. For example does anyone believe Devin Booker would be a 1 and done at Michigan? He looks the part at Kentucky.
Sometimes it happens, sometimes it doesn’t. No, but if you want to be challenging LeBron in 5 years then you need to be getting better all the time, there’s no way it can’t be a factor.
UK, Duke, UNC and Kansas certainly won't hand him the ball and get out of his way as loaded as those rosters are year after year. Kentucky just played Karl-Anthony Towns 20 minutes a game. I don't buy the idea that Brown and other elite talents don't want to get better. Their goal isn't to make an NBA roster, it's to be the greatest of all time, to win not 1, not 2, not 3....it'd be foolish for Michigan to not pitch development.I am not sure this is exactly true. Duke has let Irving(when healthy), Jabari Parker dominate the ball as frosh. Kentucky let John Wall do it. Calipari isn’t doing it right now because he has a star studded lineup. Kansas let Wiggins do it. If Brown is even close to that level he will dominate the ball. I am not sure the development angle works all that well just because they’re going to be at a school for 1 year maybe 2. For example does anyone believe Devin Booker would be a 1 and done at Michigan? He looks the part at Kentucky.
Sometimes it happens, sometimes it doesn’t. No, but if you want to be challenging LeBron in 5 years then you need to be getting better all the time, there’s no way it can’t be a factor.
But who says you need college to do it? Basketball players of that caliber (Brown included) are born, not made. Can they improve at the college level, sure they can, but would the development at the college level be as good as development in the NBA…I doubt it, especially considering you don’t have to deal with academics and can simply dedicate 100% exclusively to basketball. Lebron, Kobe, McGrady, etc didn’t need development from a college program, and I don’t think Brown does either. Quite frankly, playing at the college level could actually hinder their development, especially with the roster currently at UM…we simply have nobody that can really challenge Brown from a physical or skill standpoint to the point where it would really help him.
UK, Duke, UNC and Kansas certainly won't hand him the ball and get out of his way as loaded as those rosters are year after year. Kentucky just played Karl-Anthony Towns 20 minutes a game. I don't buy the idea that Brown and other elite talents don't want to get better. Their goal isn't to make an NBA roster, it's to be the greatest of all time, to win not 1, not 2, not 3....it'd be foolish for Michigan to not pitch development.I am not sure this is exactly true. Duke has let Irving(when healthy), Jabari Parker dominate the ball as frosh. Kentucky let John Wall do it. Calipari isn’t doing it right now because he has a star studded lineup. Kansas let Wiggins do it. If Brown is even close to that level he will dominate the ball. I am not sure the development angle works all that well just because they’re going to be at a school for 1 year maybe 2. For example does anyone believe Devin Booker would be a 1 and done at Michigan? He looks the part at Kentucky.
Sometimes it happens, sometimes it doesn’t. No, but if you want to be challenging LeBron in 5 years then you need to be getting better all the time, there’s no way it can’t be a factor.
But who says you need college to do it? Basketball players of that caliber (Brown included) are born, not made. Can they improve at the college level, sure they can, but would the development at the college level be as good as development in the NBA…I doubt it, especially considering you don’t have to deal with academics and can simply dedicate 100% exclusively to basketball. Lebron, Kobe, McGrady, etc didn’t need development from a college program, and I don’t think Brown does either. Quite frankly, playing at the college level could actually hinder their development, especially with the roster currently at UM…we simply have nobody that can really challenge Brown from a physical or skill standpoint to the point where it would really help him.
Well he’s not going to the NBA, so that’s irrelevant. If he feels his offensive skills would develop best under Beilein, then that could sway things, certainly don’t see why Michigan wouldn’t pitch this.
UK, Duke, UNC and Kansas certainly won't hand him the ball and get out of his way as loaded as those rosters are year after year. Kentucky just played Karl-Anthony Towns 20 minutes a game. I don't buy the idea that Brown and other elite talents don't want to get better. Their goal isn't to make an NBA roster, it's to be the greatest of all time, to win not 1, not 2, not 3....it'd be foolish for Michigan to not pitch development.I am not sure this is exactly true. Duke has let Irving(when healthy), Jabari Parker dominate the ball as frosh. Kentucky let John Wall do it. Calipari isn’t doing it right now because he has a star studded lineup. Kansas let Wiggins do it. If Brown is even close to that level he will dominate the ball. I am not sure the development angle works all that well just because they’re going to be at a school for 1 year maybe 2. For example does anyone believe Devin Booker would be a 1 and done at Michigan? He looks the part at Kentucky.
Sometimes it happens, sometimes it doesn’t. No, but if you want to be challenging LeBron in 5 years then you need to be getting better all the time, there’s no way it can’t be a factor.
But who says you need college to do it? Basketball players of that caliber (Brown included) are born, not made. Can they improve at the college level, sure they can, but would the development at the college level be as good as development in the NBA…I doubt it, especially considering you don’t have to deal with academics and can simply dedicate 100% exclusively to basketball. Lebron, Kobe, McGrady, etc didn’t need development from a college program, and I don’t think Brown does either. Quite frankly, playing at the college level could actually hinder their development, especially with the roster currently at UM…we simply have nobody that can really challenge Brown from a physical or skill standpoint to the point where it would really help him.
Well he’s not going to the NBA, so that’s irrelevant. If he feels his offensive skills would develop best under Beilein, then that could sway things, certainly don’t see why Michigan wouldn’t pitch this.
I guess my point is no college can truly develop Brown in 6 months, so that angle is irrelevant in my opinion. Of course UM would pitch it, but I think we all know that you can’t develop a player very much in that short of a time frame. Need at least 1-2 years minimum. For players like Brown, college is nothing but a temporary showcase, and JB and co. Need to accept that and adapt accordingly.
UK, Duke, UNC and Kansas certainly won't hand him the ball and get out of his way as loaded as those rosters are year after year. Kentucky just played Karl-Anthony Towns 20 minutes a game. I don't buy the idea that Brown and other elite talents don't want to get better. Their goal isn't to make an NBA roster, it's to be the greatest of all time, to win not 1, not 2, not 3....it'd be foolish for Michigan to not pitch development.I am not sure this is exactly true. Duke has let Irving(when healthy), Jabari Parker dominate the ball as frosh. Kentucky let John Wall do it. Calipari isn’t doing it right now because he has a star studded lineup. Kansas let Wiggins do it. If Brown is even close to that level he will dominate the ball. I am not sure the development angle works all that well just because they’re going to be at a school for 1 year maybe 2. For example does anyone believe Devin Booker would be a 1 and done at Michigan? He looks the part at Kentucky.
Sometimes it happens, sometimes it doesn’t. No, but if you want to be challenging LeBron in 5 years then you need to be getting better all the time, there’s no way it can’t be a factor.
But who says you need college to do it? Basketball players of that caliber (Brown included) are born, not made. Can they improve at the college level, sure they can, but would the development at the college level be as good as development in the NBA…I doubt it, especially considering you don’t have to deal with academics and can simply dedicate 100% exclusively to basketball. Lebron, Kobe, McGrady, etc didn’t need development from a college program, and I don’t think Brown does either. Quite frankly, playing at the college level could actually hinder their development, especially with the roster currently at UM…we simply have nobody that can really challenge Brown from a physical or skill standpoint to the point where it would really help him.
I know I’ll take flack for this but a player like Brown may actually set himself back by playing a year at Michigan. JB has a system and it takes some time to get use to. He’s not just a roll the ball out there and let them play type coach (thank god).
Brown appears to be the type that would flourish in the roll the ball out there setting. Get up and down the court, run a few sets but mostly let your athleticism take over.
In everyone’s opinion, what part of Brown’s game would benefit from playing at Michigan? I’m sincerely interested in the answers.
UK, Duke, UNC and Kansas certainly won't hand him the ball and get out of his way as loaded as those rosters are year after year. Kentucky just played Karl-Anthony Towns 20 minutes a game. I don't buy the idea that Brown and other elite talents don't want to get better. Their goal isn't to make an NBA roster, it's to be the greatest of all time, to win not 1, not 2, not 3....it'd be foolish for Michigan to not pitch development.I am not sure this is exactly true. Duke has let Irving(when healthy), Jabari Parker dominate the ball as frosh. Kentucky let John Wall do it. Calipari isn’t doing it right now because he has a star studded lineup. Kansas let Wiggins do it. If Brown is even close to that level he will dominate the ball. I am not sure the development angle works all that well just because they’re going to be at a school for 1 year maybe 2. For example does anyone believe Devin Booker would be a 1 and done at Michigan? He looks the part at Kentucky.
Sometimes it happens, sometimes it doesn’t. No, but if you want to be challenging LeBron in 5 years then you need to be getting better all the time, there’s no way it can’t be a factor.
But who says you need college to do it? Basketball players of that caliber (Brown included) are born, not made. Can they improve at the college level, sure they can, but would the development at the college level be as good as development in the NBA…I doubt it, especially considering you don’t have to deal with academics and can simply dedicate 100% exclusively to basketball. Lebron, Kobe, McGrady, etc didn’t need development from a college program, and I don’t think Brown does either. Quite frankly, playing at the college level could actually hinder their development, especially with the roster currently at UM…we simply have nobody that can really challenge Brown from a physical or skill standpoint to the point where it would really help him.
I know I’ll take flack for this but a player like Brown may actually set himself back by playing a year at Michigan. JB has a system and it takes some time to get use to. He’s not just a roll the ball out there and let them play type coach (thank god).
Brown appears to be the type that would flourish in the roll the ball out there setting. Get up and down the court, run a few sets but mostly let your athleticism take over.
In everyone’s opinion, what part of Brown’s game would benefit from playing at Michigan? I’m sincerely interested in the answers.
Ability to execute in a half court offense? Most draft prospects that are as athletic as Brown are already adept in transition. We still run when the opportunity is there so it’s not like he won’t have a chance to showcase his skills in that regard. But JB also likes to execute his halfcourt sets and while the shot clock in college is much longer than the NBA’s, you still have to break down tough, physical half court defense in the pros and I think Michigan and the B1G can provide that. He is not afraid to give anybody the chance to handle the ball and lead the attack if they are capable, no matter what kind of player you are. Manny Harris, DMo, Trey, Nik, Spike and Caris have led the offense despite all bringing something different to the table. If Brown is as good as he’s believed to be, I don’t see picking up the offense being a problem. JB has rolled out freshman after freshman in his offense. Mitch didn’t play as much early on as others, but he also had some conditioning issues. But THJ, Burke, Stu, Zack, GR3, Stauskas, and Walton featured heavily right off the bat. Now a couple of those were mostly spot up shooters early on, but Brown is more diverse than they are. No reason he wouldn’t be utilized early and often under JB, particularly if Caris does not return.
My counter to that bacon would be, each one of those players struggled for a year before grasping JB’s offensive concepts. Some more than others. Brown won’t be here for year 2 and if he is, that won’t be a good thing in terms of recruiting future elite players.
That is a great observation by you though. There aren’t too many schools that offer what Michigan offers in regards to executing in the half court.
Bottom line for me is this - the NBA is much more focused on isolation and one on one basketball to exploit mismatches nearly every time down the court. Quite frankly, the average NBA team doesn’t run very many set plays, almost strictly isolation or high PnR. College game is much different, running sets is the norm
(1) Everything – everything! – in basketball is aided by development of fundamentals. Listen to Kobe complain about AAU or talk about footwork sometime. They help players of average ability get good, good get great, great become the best.
(2) Ball-screen action is big in the NBA.
(3) Shooting
If Michigan can help Brown more than others in just these three categories, that should be a huge selling point.
(1) Everything -- everything! -- in basketball is aided by development of fundamentals. Listen to Kobe complain about AAU or talk about footwork sometime. They help players of average ability get good, good get great, great become the best.(2) Ball-screen action is big in the NBA.
(3) Shooting
If Michigan can help Brown more than others in just these three categories, that should be a huge selling point.
Russell Westbrook is not good in any fundamental area…he’s simply more athletic than any basketball player in the world. My point is, when a player (such as Brown) is that good/atheltic, fundamentals generally don’t matter all that much. Such players are able to dominate games because they are physically superior to the opposition. In Brown’s case, he already has a good skillset. 6 months isn’t going to do anything for him, especially against subpar competition in practice in conjunction with the 10 cupcakes or so in the non-conference season, in addition to the B10 cellar dwellars being horrible. No way in hell that a few months of practice and 15 games or games so against mediocre teams will benefit him greatly.
(1) Everything -- everything! -- in basketball is aided by development of fundamentals. Listen to Kobe complain about AAU or talk about footwork sometime. They help players of average ability get good, good get great, great become the best.(2) Ball-screen action is big in the NBA.
(3) Shooting
If Michigan can help Brown more than others in just these three categories, that should be a huge selling point.
Russell Westbrook is not good in any fundamental area…he’s simply has more athletic than any basketball player in the world. My point is, when a player (such as Brown) is that good/atheltic, fundamentals generally don’t matter all that much. Such players are able to dominate games because they are physically superior to the opposition. In Brown’s case, he already has a good skillset. 6 months isn’t going to do anything for him, especially against subpar competition in practice in conjunction with the 10 cupcakes or so in the non-conference season, in addition to the B10 cellar dwellars being horrible. No way in hell that a few months of practice and 15 games or games so against mediocre teams will benefit him greatly.
The first part of your post is nonsense. Fundamentals matter. No matter how athletic you are, improving your fundamentals will always benefit your game. Improving your shot, improving your handles, and improving your footwork will make you a better player. It’s not even debatable. For you to do so just shows that you enjoy taking contrarian (and in this case indefensible) stances on issues relative to this board.
The second part of your post has merit. It’s questionable how much one can improve as a one-and-done. I tend to think one can improve, but the short time frame probably makes the improvement minimal.
(1) Everything -- everything! -- in basketball is aided by development of fundamentals. Listen to Kobe complain about AAU or talk about footwork sometime. They help players of average ability get good, good get great, great become the best.(2) Ball-screen action is big in the NBA.
(3) Shooting
If Michigan can help Brown more than others in just these three categories, that should be a huge selling point.
Russell Westbrook is not good in any fundamental area…he’s simply has more athletic than any basketball player in the world. My point is, when a player (such as Brown) is that good/atheltic, fundamentals generally don’t matter all that much. Such players are able to dominate games because they are physically superior to the opposition. In Brown’s case, he already has a good skillset. 6 months isn’t going to do anything for him, especially against subpar competition in practice in conjunction with the 10 cupcakes or so in the non-conference season, in addition to the B10 cellar dwellars being horrible. No way in hell that a few months of practice and 15 games or games so against mediocre teams will benefit him greatly.
The first part of your post is nonsense. Fundamentals matter. No matter how athletic you are, improving your fundamentals will always benefit your game. Improving your shot, improving your handles, and improving your footwork will make you a better player. It’s not even debatable. For you to do so just shows that you enjoy taking contrarian (and in this case indefensible) stances on issues relative to this board.
The second part of your post has merit. It’s questionable how much one can improve as a one-and-done. I tend to think one can improve, but the short time frame probably makes the improvement minimal.
Nonsense? I pose this question to you - what fundamental skill does Westbrook excel at? And yet, he is still the best player on the planet…
I understand the narrative that hard work pays off, be a team player, etc is popular because that is the current UM model…and that does hold some merit for most players. However, if we’re being honest…some guys are just on another level, they don’t need to have good fundamentals or development…they’re just that good.
(1) Everything -- everything! -- in basketball is aided by development of fundamentals. Listen to Kobe complain about AAU or talk about footwork sometime. They help players of average ability get good, good get great, great become the best.(2) Ball-screen action is big in the NBA.
(3) Shooting
If Michigan can help Brown more than others in just these three categories, that should be a huge selling point.
Russell Westbrook is not good in any fundamental area…he’s simply has more athletic than any basketball player in the world. My point is, when a player (such as Brown) is that good/atheltic, fundamentals generally don’t matter all that much. Such players are able to dominate games because they are physically superior to the opposition. In Brown’s case, he already has a good skillset. 6 months isn’t going to do anything for him, especially against subpar competition in practice in conjunction with the 10 cupcakes or so in the non-conference season, in addition to the B10 cellar dwellars being horrible. No way in hell that a few months of practice and 15 games or games so against mediocre teams will benefit him greatly.
The first part of your post is nonsense. Fundamentals matter. No matter how athletic you are, improving your fundamentals will always benefit your game. Improving your shot, improving your handles, and improving your footwork will make you a better player. It’s not even debatable. For you to do so just shows that you enjoy taking contrarian (and in this case indefensible) stances on issues relative to this board.
The second part of your post has merit. It’s questionable how much one can improve as a one-and-done. I tend to think one can improve, but the short time frame probably makes the improvement minimal.
Nonsense? I pose this question to you - what fundamental skill does Westbrook excel at? And yet, he is still the best player on the planet…
I understand the narrative that hard work pays off, be a team player, etc is popular because that is the current UM model…and that does hold some merit for most players. However, if we’re being honest…some guys are just on another level, they don’t need to have good fundamentals or development…they’re just that good.
I am not trying to sell the importance of Michigan/JB or to extol the virtues of hard work. As I mentioned, it’s debatable how much one could improve in just a few months on campus.
First, Saying Westbrook doesn’t need fundamentals to dominate, and, therefore, neither does Brown, is not great logic. Westbrook is just ridiculous in his athleticism. Brown, while very, athletic, is not in that same league.
But second, just because Westbrook is dominant now doesn’t mean he has reached his ceiling. He isn’t a good shooter and he turns the ball over a lot. Imagine if he shot 40% from 3. Also, over time his athleticism advantage will diminish. He’ll need to hone other aspects of his game to keep playing at a high level.
Do you think Usain Bolt doesn’t continue to refine his technique simply because he has more talent than anyone else in the world? Of course not. His talent allows him to slack off more than most sprinters, but he is constantly working on his starts and technique.