In my opinion Irvin is an ok ball handler but he does not have point guard skills. In terms of point guard skills he is better than Glenn Robinson 3, about the same as Hardaway, and although I think he has shown improvement I don’t think he will ever be able to develop point guard skills like those possessed by Levert or Stauskas because in my opinion you learn that stuff in middle school or (usually) not at all. Having said that Irvin is one of my favorite players and I do believe he will continue to improve. A sincere question: Do most elite teams have 2’s and 3’s with point guard/ creator skills? I always assumed we were spoiled having Walton, Stauskas and Levert on the floor at the same time…
Walton isn't even a good catch-and-shoot player. He's adequate at it, but that's way down the list of his abilities. It's certainly not a strength of his.
Walton isn’t a good catch and shoot player? I think I’ll leave you to your imagination on that note…enjoy
Walton is one of those players that is way better than he appears. He makes it look easy so I think people assume it was easy. Plus, he is completely unselfish–a sign of a great point guard! (I do wish we could see him doing more ball screen pick and rolls ala Burke/ Stauskas). Regarding Chatman. I will be surprised if, once he settles in, Chatman does not display point guard skills by next year. He will be a creator for himself and others–his skills are hiding under the surface–because he is a Freshman in my opinion.
Pleasantly surprised by Doyle, very underwhelmed by Donnal so far. I think Mark is really a stretch 4 with a perimeter player mentality. He looks not only uncomfortable but very unwilling to bang in the post. His verticality as well as his physicality make him a very weak option as a productive finisher going forward. He’s really a pick-n-pop guy, who’s going to get limited opportunities to exploit that strength this year. His future at this point looks very tentative as a viable option at the 5.
Irvin may have a good three percentage right now. But I do think his shot hasn’t been as locked in as last year. Maybe it’s because he’s getting more minutes and opportunities so he will just have more chances for bad shots. But last year I was surprised when he missed and I feel like I’m a little more on edge when he shoots this year. It just feels slightly off.
I think part of it stems from indecision now that he has an increased role. He has definitely passed on open looks that he wouldn’t have hesitated to take last year when all he was in the game for was to shoot.
Walton isn't even a good catch-and-shoot player. He's adequate at it, but that's way down the list of his abilities. It's certainly not a strength of his.Walton isn’t a good catch and shoot player? I think I’ll leave you to your imagination on that note…enjoy
Ok, I’ll leave you to his 25% 3 Pt shooting against real competition thus far.
Ok, I’ll leave you to his 25% 3 Pt shooting against real competition thus far.
How about his 41% over a full season last year. Especially when his role was less of a creator and more of a catch and shoot. Definitely a good catch and shoot player.
Matt, disagree that we lack creators and have good shooting thus far. Shooting actually has me worried a bit. Irvin is a dynamite all-around player now, but that seems to have cost him in terms of shooting, in that he can't be dialed in on the basket all the time. Shooting 40% from the field is not going to get it done for this team, especially not on the road. LeVert, Walton and Chatman are all adequate shooters, but certainly not great, certainly not guys you can count on to hit a jumpshot (LeVert's "retractable claw" shooting motion will never make me feel comfortable with him shooting).I actually see why the staff wanted Duncan Robinson for next year: Walton, Irvin, Chatman and maybe MAAR will all create, but Spike is the only guy on the team who you watch pull up to shoot and consistently think “cash”. I hope Irvin finds his shot, because we’re going to need better efficiency from him than 18 points on 17 shots. Same with Walton and LeVert.
Although with Irvin’s newfound strength and quickness, I’d say it’s not out of the question that he could sneak into the first round this year.
This is a bit extreme, no? I actually have a bet with Hail that Irvin will shoot sub 40% from 3 for the year, so I don’t think he’s that good of a shooter, but to say you’re worried when the man is shooting 43% from range is ridiculous. Walton is shooting 39% from 3 and Caris 44%…I mean serously, do you want all to be 50%+ shooters from 3?
Irvin a “dynamite all around player”? We must be watching two entirely different players…we’re talking about a guy that literally trips over himself when attempting to create off the dribble and hasn’t used PnR once this year to effectively create for others.
Chatman an “adequate” shooter but Irvin is not?..again we must be watching 2 different players
I would count on Irvin, Walton and Levert to hit catch and shoot 3s all day, every day.
We have exactly 2 creators, Spike (the best) and Caris. How can you not be worried about creators for next year if Caris leaves and Spike scheduled to leave the year after?
Irvin: 43% against mostly creampuffs. He’s 33% from 3 vs Oregon, Nova and Syracuse. That’s not going to cut it.
Walton: 39% against mostly creampuffs. He’s 25% from 3 vs Oregon, Nova and Syracuse. That’s not going to cut it.
LeVert: 44% against mostly creampuffs. He’s 31% from 3 vs Oregon, Nova and Syracuse. That’s not going to cut it.
Pretty stupid way to look at it. Larger sample sizes > competition level in terms of 3pt shooting %.
Nm formatting issues
My thoughts:
Overall, I’m not overly concerned about a lack of “creators.” I think it’s overstated. Spike, for example, got himself into the lane numerous times last night and set up big men for easy baskets, and also had a few kick out passes for threes. He finished with 9 assists. Similarly, while Irvin will probably never be a guy who is a great passer, he has shown the ability to get his own shot off the dribble - he’s been really adept at finishing with the left-hand on drives.
As far as transition baskets, we are creating far more turnovers with our perimeter defense than last year, but we are having trouble finishing at the rim, Caris in particular. He looks like he’s still a little injured to me - he’s not dunking the ball on the break. Last night, on that play where Gbinije stripped him from behind, he would have dunked that last year.
When you talk about post defense, you can’t just include Donnal/Doyle. Last night, for example, Syracuse tried to post Roberson on Levert repeatedly, and McCullough on Chatman, and for the most part Levert and Chatman did a great job on those guys with their length. I agree that Donnal/Doyle are giving up a lot of easy baskets, and need to push their guys out further. With that said, again, not many teams have the ability to take advantage of that. Arizona will, of course, and Wisconsin will with Kaminski. But in the Big Ten, a “big” game for a guy like Amir Williams is maybe 13-15 points. So while the post defense needs work, I don’t think it will cost us many games.
As far as individual players:
Walton - great start to the year, but has been disappearing lately. I think he could get into the lane and create more shots if needed (recall the pull up shot against Nova that drew Isiah Thomas comparisons from the announcers), but he defers a lot. Last night, he missed a lot of open threes. He’s still a good shooter, but needs to prove he can make open looks against faster, more athletic defenses. (He missed a bunch of open looks against Kentucky, too).
Caris - he has that 15-foot fadeaway down pat. We went to that shot a couple times against Nova and he drained it. The problem I see is too many missed layups. I think he’s always been a good three point shooter, but not a great one. He’s not automatic when wide open the way Nik was. Agree that he may not be a lottery pick, but I think he could have a long NBA career (not necessarily as a starter).
Irvin - he also missed a few wide open looks last night, including an airball from the corner. He’s been way better than I anticipated off the dribble - he’s getting to the rim and finishing with the left frequently. His ability off the dribble is certainly no worse than Tim’s as a sophomore. By the way, he did try to dunk it against Nova, just got blocked on the way up (great play - and I thought Walton got hammered on the play before and should have been shooting FTs).
Kam - I love his length. He is finally looking more comfortable on his outside shot, and they are falling more, though his balance and footwork on those shots are still not great. I think he’s a star in two years. A offseason in Camp Sanderson will be huge for him.
Doyle - very pleasantly surprised. He’s strong and not afraid to mix it up. One great thing for us is that I doubt he’ll ever be good enough to leave early, so I think we’re looking at a guy who could easily be a 13/8 type center for us as a senior, which would be huge.
Spike - I agree with everything Matt said.
Donnal - the one guy who has been flat disappointing to me. His defense is weak, he isn’t strong with the ball, and while he’s looked decent shooting the ball, he rarely gets opportunities and has a slow release, which means he needs to be really open to get off a quality shot.
Wilson - I think the dunk attempt against Nova is overplayed. He took off from fairly far away, and I don’t think he went up very hard because he didn’t anticipate someone trying to block his shot. Let’s put it this way - I don’t think that one play is representative of his athleticism. (And if it is, well, that’s not good). He’s missed some serious time with injuries. At this point, it might be better to redshirt him. But I’m not as down on him as others - I think he’ll have a significant role in the next few years.
Two further guys to mention:
Dawkins - I’d like to see him play more. His handle needs work, but he looks smooth on the corner three and makes it, and shows nice athleticism around the rim.
MAAR - has some size, and gets to the rim nicely, but can’t finish (that will improve), and can’t shoot very well at this point. He’s a guy who I think will either really come on next year with increased playing time, or will be a transfer candidate.
I think we finish 10-2 non-conference (loss to AZ, could get ugly), and either 13-5 or 12-6 in the Big Ten (can’t decide on whether we can beat Maryland on the road). So, 23-7 or 22-8 overall, around a 4-6 seed.
LA. - very small point, but Zak did not attempt to dunk vs NOVA. This replay clearly reflects Zak attempting a left hand layup to end the game. Even when shots are blocked, the offensive player almost follows through on the attempt and grabs the rim 100% of the time.
http://mgoblog.com/content/villanova-60-michigan-55
Overall though, Zak has been great at finishing. He’s going up with authority
Matt, disagree that we lack creators and have good shooting thus far. Shooting actually has me worried a bit. Irvin is a dynamite all-around player now, but that seems to have cost him in terms of shooting, in that he can't be dialed in on the basket all the time. Shooting 40% from the field is not going to get it done for this team, especially not on the road. LeVert, Walton and Chatman are all adequate shooters, but certainly not great, certainly not guys you can count on to hit a jumpshot (LeVert's "retractable claw" shooting motion will never make me feel comfortable with him shooting).I actually see why the staff wanted Duncan Robinson for next year: Walton, Irvin, Chatman and maybe MAAR will all create, but Spike is the only guy on the team who you watch pull up to shoot and consistently think “cash”. I hope Irvin finds his shot, because we’re going to need better efficiency from him than 18 points on 17 shots. Same with Walton and LeVert.
Although with Irvin’s newfound strength and quickness, I’d say it’s not out of the question that he could sneak into the first round this year.
This is a bit extreme, no? I actually have a bet with Hail that Irvin will shoot sub 40% from 3 for the year, so I don’t think he’s that good of a shooter, but to say you’re worried when the man is shooting 43% from range is ridiculous. Walton is shooting 39% from 3 and Caris 44%…I mean serously, do you want all to be 50%+ shooters from 3?
Irvin a “dynamite all around player”? We must be watching two entirely different players…we’re talking about a guy that literally trips over himself when attempting to create off the dribble and hasn’t used PnR once this year to effectively create for others.
Chatman an “adequate” shooter but Irvin is not?..again we must be watching 2 different players
I would count on Irvin, Walton and Levert to hit catch and shoot 3s all day, every day.
We have exactly 2 creators, Spike (the best) and Caris. How can you not be worried about creators for next year if Caris leaves and Spike scheduled to leave the year after?
Irvin: 43% against mostly creampuffs. He’s 33% from 3 vs Oregon, Nova and Syracuse. That’s not going to cut it.
Walton: 39% against mostly creampuffs. He’s 25% from 3 vs Oregon, Nova and Syracuse. That’s not going to cut it.
LeVert: 44% against mostly creampuffs. He’s 31% from 3 vs Oregon, Nova and Syracuse. That’s not going to cut it.
Pretty stupid way to look at it. Larger sample sizes > competition level in terms of 3pt shooting %.
Then let’s just take their 3 PT % in practice and open gyms. There’s no difference between shooting against a big, athletic defender that top teams have to offer and the defenders that Nicholls State has to offer? Pretty stupid logic.
No, reflecting selective data to fit your narrative is stupid. It’s the same thing Hail and I go back and forth about (although we actually agree on this). You have to take a wholistic approach instead of saying let’s control the data for what I like on the second Wednesday on leap year.
Matt, you’re totally right - don’t know how I missed that, I thought for sure he tried to dunk. He should have, for sure. You’ll almost always draw a foul if nothing else.
As far as the three point shooting debate, I think there’s some validity to the point that Irvin, Caris and Derrick haven’t been as prolific against the better teams. It’s a function of many things - better defense, fewer open looks, more forced shots because of the better defense, etc. I would guess that on the year, all three will finish anywhere from 37% to 43% from three. All are pretty good shooters. None have the pure stroke of Nik, but not many guys do.
Of course there is some merit to it, but if you take that approach then there would be very few good shooters if the criteria is Syracuse and Nova only
Ok, I’ll leave you to his 25% 3 Pt shooting against real competition thus far.
How about his 41% over a full season last year. Especially when his role was less of a creator and more of a catch and shoot. Definitely a good catch and shoot player.
This right here, end of story.
To give this some context, both Syracuse and Nova allow 28% from 3 on the year, good for #36 and #42 nationally. From that standpoint, our shooters performed damn well from range.
Of course, but some of those stats were also put up against awful competition. Conference play will be a good barometer.
Yes, Albrecht is the best backup point guard in the country. He’d start for most of D1, and pretty much all of the teams he wouldn’t start for would kill to have him off the bench. He is a big part of why we have a solid chance to go 10-2 non-conference, which is about as good as anyone could have hoped, given our other issues. Talk all you want about his athletic limitations, but good things just happen when he’s on the floor.
Irvin and Doyle are the two other guys who have really been as good as we’ve needed them to be. Doyle’s stat lines have gotten better and better, and he should crack the starting lineup soon, and Irvin’s offensive game has gotten more diverse, though he’s maybe not rebounding quite as well as some thought he would.
LeVert and Walton still haven’t fully hit their stride this season IMO. Shooting has been a little spotty, though some of that is due to our inexperience up front with setting the screens that made our offense efficient. Chatman the same, though his stat lines are also getting better…by February, I think he’ll be a good to very good, consistent contributor.
Not sure whether we had a reason to expect too much from Donnal, other than wishful thinking and teammate hype (meaningless as usual). When a guy redshirts for reasons other than injury, that’s really the coaching staff waving a white flag and conceding that he’s probably never going to be that good, but hoping against hope that if they put it off for a year, something will develop. Bottom line, he’s just not that good, even as an outside threat. He had a whole year to practice and develop, and Doyle has already overtaken him. Doyle will start soon, and Donnal will be getting maybe 5-10 minutes a game off the bench. At this point, whatever we get from him is gravy.
When a guy redshirts for reasons other than injury, that's really the coaching staff waving a white flag and conceding that he's probably never going to be that good, but hoping against hope that if they put it off for a year, something will develop.
That’s a bit of an over-generalization. Some guys just aren’t ready physically. In Donnal’s case, he was behind Mitch, J.Mo, and Horford. He was NEVER going to play last year, so a redshirt made sense. Regardless of his potential skill level.