Livers has been significantly better defensively this year, IMO.
9 Likes
He had some great possessions last night on the perimeter
I see Livers as a 3-and-wonāt-get-killed-on-D player.
7 Likes
Yeah he did, I still think he would have gotten drafted though. Even without workouts for NBA teams, I have a hard time seeing 30 teams passing on a guy who was just the MVP (West Regionals) of a team that made it all the way, who is as athletically gifted as he is.
Funny though because I just finished listening to that podcast mentioned in your link. The way Duncan described Charles consoling guys like Poole after the National Championship Game just made me reminisce about how great of a leader he was for us. I also remember that he challenged the team to believe that they could make it all the way despite barely being in the rankings, and eventually spoke it into existence.
Thereās also a snippet in the podcast where Duncan mentions Livers as talented but not knowing where to be on offense that year, and Titus and Tate just start laughing at how clueless and untalented they think Livers is and pressure Duncan to admit it as well since heās not on the team anymore. Itās great to see how far Livers has come, and even more satisfying that he converted the dagger and-1 against Titusā former team a week ago.
1 Like
The scouting reports need to be updated. Livers defense has been significantly better this season and showed that he can guard quick footed players. Youāre basing it on last yearās report. Thereās a reason why Livers stock has been on the rise
3 Likes
I think thatās it - ā3 and Dā guys rarely REALLY excel at both (itās why Danny Green has made $70 million in the last 6 years, heās one of the few that does) but more a sliding scale between Duncan Robinson (elite three point shooting, can survive defensively) and, like, Torrey Craig (will lock you down, shoots ok enough that you canāt just completely ignore him).
Yeah, itād be weird to me if Livers didnāt get drafted at this point. If youāre 6ā8", can shoot 40% from 3, and are an adequate defender then you have a NBA role. Last year I think he was probably borderline because he really did get roasted at times on D, and I think heās taken a big step forward on that end, while also being one of the best shooters in the country. Heās taking and making catch and shoot threes with zero space. Youāre telling me that no one will talk themselves into him being their āupgraded Duncan Robinsonā?
3 Likes
Improved defense, glimmers of adequate playmaking, and just being healthy for an entire season should really guarantee heās drafted. Maye heās just too old to work his way into the first round at this point, but we see overlooked/undervalued upperclassmen carve out solid roles on NBA teams all the time now pretty quickly (see Xavier Tillman and Peyton Pritchard just last year) and Livers is starting to look like that kind of guy.
2 Likes
Donāt wanna veer too far off topic but I would even say Danny Green doesnāt excel at the ā3ā part of 3 and D, at least not recently. Agree with the general sentiment though - Livers doesnāt need to be great at defense to survive - being ā3-and-wonāt-get-killed-on-Dā should be enough.
career 40% from 3, shooting 39% on 6 3PA per game this year. Iād call that excelling.
5 Likes
Career wise yes, but not the timeline given above of the past 6 years though, especially with the way the NBA is trending. 5.9 attempts per game isnāt really high volume nor is 38.5% elite efficiency. And thatās with teams helping fairly aggressively off of Green when defending the Sixers. I think thereās about 50 guys in the right now shooting 40%+ on 5+ attempts and I would guess that some of them can play defense as well. I would even say Lonzo Ball would be a better example of a 3 and D player who excels at both: 40% on 8 attempts per game and really solid defense.
My point was to really emphasize that Green is still getting paid despite one part of ā3 and Dā not really being top notch anymore, and so Livers will definitely be able to survive in the league if he can keep up his shot.
Anddd Lonzo is about to make $20 million dollars a year because of that (deserved or not) after only showing flashes of shot making. Guys like Danny Green are needed on all 30 NBA rosters.
Lonzo really worked on his shot. They were playing the Pistons a couple days ago and on one play I mistook him for JJ Redick (who had just subbed out.) Gone is that ugly slingshot delivery.
Lonzo is shooting 38% on high volume shot from 3 pt so heās emerging as a legitimate shooter after remaking his shot mechanics. He wonāt ever live up to his draft status but heāll be a valuable role player as a 3 and D guy
1 Like
yeah the weird think about Lonzo is that everyone was in love with his passing, etcā¦and heās really not a PG. Like, he can run on the break with it fine, but he canāt beat anyone off the dribble in order to get the offense moving.
It turns out that Lamelo is actually everything people thought Lonzo was.
1 Like
āpoint guard in transition, spot-up wing in the half-courtā was how Zach Lowe described him in his article today
1 Like
Lol, I think I just regurgitated what I heard Zach say on his pod last week, so that makes sense.
It turns out I have few opinion that I donāt hear first from Lowe or Nate Duncan.
1 Like
I only skimmed this but for this upcoming draft only, NBA seniors have to opt in to the NBA Draft. I take this to mean if a player doesnāt explicitly say āIām leaving for the draftā, they maintain their eligibility for the extra season all current seniors can have next year. So basically seniors for this year are now treated like all underclassmen where they have to declare for the draft, and probably going to end up following the same timelines and sets of rules with regards to agents.
This is going to make it slightly different to know which seniors are going to do what. Now instead of needing to hear a player say āIām coming backā, the working assumption will be that theyāre coming back until we hear them say āIām declaringā. Some seniors who have no chance at the draft may ignore this and go straight to Europe, transfer schools, or just choose to move on from basketball all together. But this is making me really giddy for the potential idea of Brad Davison having to declare for the NBA Draft.
Just did a deep dive on Lonzoās shooting and I think I agree with youāas long as thatās the expectation for Lonzo. Heās a role player, 3 and D guy. Maybe best case third banana on a decent team.
I donāt think these numbers are completely up to date, but of his 221 3-point attempts this season, looks like about 71 percent are off the catch per Second Spectrum. Thatās 31st among the 81 guards with at least 70 attempts on the year. That puts him in decent company among role playersāsome plus shooters, some okay at best shootersābecause heās hitting both (catch and shoot and off the dribble threes) at an acceptable rate.
Itās also a far cry from the more dynamic point guards in the league. But maybe nobody expects that from him at this point, and Iām having an argument with a straw man (as subsequent comments show). Doing this also helped put into perspective how incredible guys like Steph, Lillard, Mitchell, etc. are, and my god is LaVine having a great season.
Table is for guards only, minimum 15 GP and 70 (C&S) attempts on the year (Top 10, surrounding Lonzo, and Bottom 8 for share of shots coming from C&S% are shown). Sorry if this is too big, I can pare it down if unacceptable Dylan.
| PLAYER | TEAM | C&S 3PA | C&S 3P% | OTD 3PA | OTD 3P% | Share C&S (%) | Share C&S (Rank) |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Damian Lillard | POR | 71 | 47 | 250 | 35 | 22 | 1 |
| Zach LaVine | CHI | 83 | 48 | 159 | 43 | 34 | 2 |
| Jamal Murray | DEN | 80 | 40 | 121 | 40 | 40 | 3 |
| Malcolm Brogdon | IND | 83 | 39 | 116 | 39 | 42 | 4 |
| Mike Conley | UTA | 77 | 43 | 98 | 41 | 44 | 5 |
| Stephen Curry | GSW | 165 | 42 | 210 | 41 | 44 | 5 |
| Kyrie Irving | BKN | 73 | 38 | 84 | 39 | 46 | 7 |
| Donovan Mitchell | UTA | 124 | 44 | 132 | 35 | 48 | 8 |
| Victor Oladipo | HOU | 72 | 38 | 76 | 28 | 49 | 9 |
| Bradley Beal | WAS | 100 | 40 | 100 | 27 | 50 | 10 |
| Buddy Hield | SAC | 206 | 35 | 114 | 39 | 64 | 25 |
| Wayne Ellington | DET | 90 | 40 | 49 | 41 | 65 | 26 |
| JJ Redick | NOP | 87 | 39 | 44 | 30 | 66 | 27 |
| Eric Gordon | HOU | 121 | 35 | 58 | 33 | 68 | 28 |
| Donte DiVincenzo | MIL | 113 | 41 | 51 | 39 | 69 | 29 |
| Kendrick Nunn | MIA | 93 | 40 | 41 | 32 | 69 | 30 |
| Lonzo Ball | NOP | 156 | 41 | 65 | 37 | 71 | 31 |
| Dillon Brooks | MEM | 106 | 34 | 43 | 30 | 71 | 32 |
| Seth Curry | PHI | 79 | 52 | 32 | 34 | 71 | 33 |
| Theo Maledon | OKC | 76 | 43 | 30 | 27 | 72 | 34 |
| Malik Beasley | MIN | 205 | 42 | 74 | 41 | 73 | 35 |
| Kevin Huerter | ATL | 133 | 39 | 48 | 35 | 73 | 36 |
| Denzel Valentine | CHI | 93 | 37 | 33 | 33 | 74 | 37 |
| Tim Hardaway Jr. | DAL | 174 | 41 | 59 | 36 | 75 | 38 |
| Mychal Mulder | GSW | 74 | 41 | 7 | 57 | 91 | 74 |
| Damion Lee | GSW | 110 | 40 | 10 | 30 | 92 | 75 |
| Timothe Luwawu-Cabarrot | BKN | 126 | 38 | 11 | 27 | 92 | 76 |
| Max Strus | MIA | 75 | 39 | 6 | 17 | 93 | 77 |
| RJ Barrett | NYK | 101 | 33 | 7 | 29 | 94 | 78 |
| Nicolas Batum | LAC | 126 | 46 | 7 | 14 | 95 | 79 |
| Josh Hart | NOP | 125 | 36 | 4 | 25 | 97 | 80 |
| Pat Connaughton | MIL | 98 | 41 | 3 | 0 | 97 | 81 |
if Jordan Nwora can be a solid 2nd round pick, so can Isaiah Livers. Similar size, but Livers with even better shooting and passing stats and probably similar as defenders.
1 Like