I’m saying that when they went up against each other, Andre got the better of him nearly every time.
It was kind of the reverse of Andre vs. Embiid.
I think comparing guys across eras makes sense if you’re just trying to figure out who the better player was.
I watched Hakeem a lot. Could he have developed a decent three point shot? Maybe. He was definitely a good 15-18 foot shooter. But either way, he might have been less versatile than KAT, but I think he was a better offensive player. No one could stop him in the post - see Shaq (an elite center in his own right, of course) trying in the 1994 Finals. By the way, I’d also say Shaq was a better offensive player - again, less versatile, but better.
I don’t like it because it is argued with heavy biases toward the preferred era of the arguers.
Towns offensive stats so far are better than Hakeem’s. Towns only played 35 games this year but in that span he averaged 26.5 PTS and 4.4 AST with 60%(!!!) eFG%. Hakeem never approached that combo of scoring, passing, and efficiency.
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Hakeem is a two time NBA champion who, in 145 career playoff games, averaged 25.9 a game, with 23 games of 35 or more points and 10 games of 40 or more points. In his era, he had to go up against guys like Shaq, Patrick Ewing, and David Robinson, with an “easy night” being someone like Mark Eaton.
By comparison, Larry Bird played in 164 career playoff games, averaging 23.8 points, with 17 games of 35+ and 5 games of 40+.
When KAT even gets his team to the playoffs, I’ll take this argument a little more seriously.
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As a Timberwolves fan I can tell you that KAT is both incredibly talented and incredibly frustrating. I’d say he’s a below average defender and a lot of times he’s filling up the stat sheet in games that have already been lost. It’s becoming very clear that he’s not going to be the #1 guy on a winning team. I think he’ll be better suited as the number 2 or 3 option so hopefully adding Dangelo Russell can allow him to be more comfortable. The Drummond thing is very true. KAT does not do well against guys that’ll get physical with him. It was good to see him finally go after Embiid this year.
It is tough to compare eras but most sports fans do try to do so, and I’m no different. KAT strikes me as a center who is thriving in an era where there aren’t many good centers. I’m not saying he’d be Kevin Duckworth if he played in the 80’s and 90’s but I do think there’s at least 8 or 9 centers from that era who I’d take over him in a heartbeat. That pretty much goes for Embiid and Jokic too.
However, just like I think many C’s from that era could adapt to the finesse/movement/shooting style of today’s game, I do think it’s also possible for today’s player to adapt to the more physical, post-oriented style of yesteryear.
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I stick with the philosophy that athletes get better from generation to generation. In some sports more than others, but in all sports. And while there may be rare exceptions, there is no question that basketball players in the 1970s were superior to those in the 1950s. 1990s over 1970s. And undoubtedly 2020 over the 1990s. Similarly, comparisons of players from different eras almost always devolves into defenses of the era one most associates with—Jordan v James being the most obvious recent unsolvable example. Also similarly, people almost always find the music they grew up with to be so so superior to that of their children.
Towns and Embiid would have been studs in any era.
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Those two are no doubt very talented. I’m not suggesting otherwise. I’m just arguing that Hakeem, for example, is a two time NBA champion who averaged 25.9 per game during his playoff career. In my view, Towns has a long way to go to be considered as good as Hakeem, let alone better.
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Towns is far less athletic than Hakeem (or David Robinson, Mourning, Shaq, and Ewing) and seems pretty soft to me. Again, the latter may be in part due to the different hoop culture there is now.
Fwiw I did not say he was better than Hakeem. I was defending a statement that said Towns was the most talented offensive big ever. He’s only 24. He has a lot of growth to do.
As for players being softer now, nah that is straight up bias towards a certain era. Not a chance I would take Patrick Ewing over what’s Towns is/will be
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How are you defining athleticism?
Also, from your prior post, you’d take 8-9 centers over Embiid and Jokic, in addition to KAT?
I may agree that the average NBA player is more athletic than the the average NBA player of yesteryear, but if you are looking at it from a specific player vs. another specific player, then things change. Wilt was athletic enough to dominate in this era. Dominique & Dr. J were more athletic than 98% of today’s league. Meanwhile, Jokic is a perfect body-double of Greg Ostertag. Freaks came from all eras and just because someone is playing now doesn’t make him more athletic by default.
A lot of is it jumping but also agility.
C’s from the 80’s and 90’s that I’d put ahead of Embiid & Jokic (I said “pretty much” about those guys), and certainly KAT:
Hakeem
Kareem
Shaq
David Robinson
Moses
Ewing
Alonzo
The argument can come along when you reach players at the Gilmore (80’s), Lanier, Daugherty, Mutumbo, Sikma, Parrish-level.
Dominique and Dr. J were both athletic freaks in their era and they would definitely be able to play in any era. That said, they would certainly not be more athletic than 98% of the league today. Freaks may come in all eras but the athletic freaks from the earlier eras are athletic freaks compared to much less athletic competition.
Wilt is the exception to the rule as he was more athletic than both Dominique and Dr. J at an earlier point in time. He would still be one of the most athletic players today.
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This will be my last post but I think Towns is very athletic, just not in the traditional sense that you speak of when you think athlete = jumping ability. No, he isn’t fast twitch, explosive… but he is incredibly coordinated, mobile, fluid, and runs the floor really well. Think about how many players have the type of elite footwork he does in the post, but can also take their man off the dribble from the outside the 3PT arc.
For me, in a slightly different way, it is like Luka Doncic for guards. Do you think he is “athletic?” Most would say no. Doncic’s ability to change directions and stop and start with such precision is a different form of “athleticism,” but functionally, still allows him to perform at the highest levels. And that is despite not being fast like a John Wall or De’Aaron Fox, or explosive like Westbrook – players who come to mind when you think of traditional “athleticism.”
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I actually don’t agree with that. When you watch old film of Dr. J, he was Jordan before Jordan. There were plenty of really athletic players by the 1970s, and Dr. J was the best. He would still be among the very elite in today’s game.
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This is elite stuff in any era.
There are some guys - Dr. J, Jordan, Wilkins, Vince Carter, Kobe, LeBron, probably Zion - who are going to be elite athletes no matter the era.
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You can look up measurables and compare. Dr. J was an athletic freak back then and he’d still be able to fit in in todays game because of how far ahead of his time he was. But he would certainly not be more athletic than 98% of the league. That’s just a fact.
It’s a “fact,” huh? Cool. What was Dr. J’s vertical? How fast did he get off the floor? We see he could dunk from the free throw line like Jordan. Are there other guys in the league today who can do that? If so, who are they? On his average dunk, how high above the rim did Dr. J elevate? What about the guys guarding him? Their verticals? How many contested dunks did he have? What were the measurable circumstances surrounding them?
You can’t measure any of this stuff. All you can do is look at old film.
Sure, you can measure AVERAGES over time periods. Yes, the average athlete today is bigger, faster, and stronger. But guys like Dr. J are outliers. Vince Carter is an outlier. Show me a 6-6 wing in the NBA who can dunk like Vince did 20 years ago. If there is one (and I can’t think of one), it’s literally like 1-2 guys. 20 years ago was 2000. 20 years before that was 1980, when Dr. J was still a dunking machine. And in 2000, I would have argued the only guys who could dunk like Dr. J are Vince, Kobe, Dominique and Michael.
Also, there‘s a difference between generic “athleticism” and being a star player (which means being able to USE that athleticism to score 25 points a night). There have always been freak athletes in basketball who don’t possess much skill. Benny Anders, for example, was probably the best dunker for Phi Slamma Jamma. Michael Graham was an insane athlete for Georgetown. The Suns had a dude in the early 1990s named Richard Dumas who was a crazy good athlete but not an elite player. Miles Bridges today is a good example - very athletic, but unlikely to ever be a star. Among star players today, I’d say Zion, LeBron and Giannis are in Dr. J’s class of athleticism. Who else?
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I’ll give you Westbrook, too. Silly impressive athlete.
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