UM and Jalen Coleman mutually end recruitment

Recruiting
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No, "pathetic" is ignoring reality to push your fantasy agenda. I have no idea if Coleman has "character" issues. I do know his uncle was running his recruitment for awhile, and that's not a positive sign, though apparently he's not anymore. With him, I assume we just decided he doesn't seem to really want to be here, and so we'll find some kids who do. Cheating happens all over the place. Look at the time when Michigan recruited as well as anyone in the country (circa 1985 to 1995). Kids/families/handlers/AAU coaches were on the take back then, and not much has changed. There are still plenty of kids for us to pursue, but the pool of top 50 players is always going to be somewhat limited.

Reality i.e. your heavily speculative evidence? LOL ok

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We’ve seen Beilein drop guys before that the fan base really wanted. Alex Legion was mentioned above, Trevon Bluitt, Trey Zeigler. Once he recruits a guy hard for a long time, if the kid still seems lukewarm on Michigan, there comes a point where Beilein ends it. Above someone pointed out that he didn’t end it with Chatman. I’m willing to guess he had reasons for continuing to go after Chatman and reasons for not going after Coleman. Maybe it’s as simple as a bird in the hand with Robinson, or maybe there’s something more that we’ll never know about.

I don’t expect Beilein to bat 1.000, and I don’t see anything wrong with saying you think this was a mistake. But I’m kind of surprised at the level of confidence some of you guys have in your own opinions. Each of you is some random guy behind a keyboard. We all are. At the other end of the spectrum is Beilein. He has hung 3 banners in 3 years at a program that was left for dead not too long ago. That doesn’t make him right, but I have a hard time going beyond “yeah, I’m not sure I would have done that.” (I think that qualifies as something other than “total deference,” but in any case, there has to be something in between total deference and zero deference). Some of you guys who are blasting this move seem to have a dial that doesn’t go below 11.

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So in summary… recruiting sucks! JB can’t recruit! We’re doomed! Coleman is a head case, but he can ball! Robinson is white and can shoot, but he played D3 ball so he sucks! Trust JB above all else! Fire JB! Choose Michigan or you’re taking a bribe! That’s pathetic… wait no that’s pathetic!

So basically, we continue pining for games to start and someone gets to say I told you so eventually. Sounds like a typical day on the boards.

Go Blue!

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warning: cliff jumpers ahead

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I don’t expect Beilein to bat 1.000, and I don’t see anything wrong with saying you think this was a mistake. But I’m kind of surprised at the level of confidence some of you guys have in your own opinions. Each of you is some random guy behind a keyboard. We all are. At the other end of the spectrum is Beilein. He has hung 3 banners in 3 years at a program that was left for dead not too long ago.

Gotta stop using Appeal to Authority fallacy

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The same way that a coach that doesn't "cheat" every year can be considered a cheater.

Um…yes, precisely. JB doesn’t pull in three draft picks every year, but he’s still a recruiter. I’m glad we agree.

Get real, the big question that Everyone had about JB coming in was whether he could recruit upper tier talent, that was a stigma associated with JB. I remember a recruit's father (maybe Irvin's) saying something to the extent that JB just won a big ten title with a bunch of mid majors, so it should improve with real talent. That confirmed that there is a stigma

Yes, there was a stigma. And then he took the program to a national championship game and an Elite Eight, put 5 guys into the pros in two years, with two lottery picks and two other first rounders. Thus ended the stigma.

Ended the stigma according to who…you? Boards of other big ten teams literally laugh at JB’s recruiting and he is often laughed at when we’re in the running for a common recruit. Those fans feel no threat at all that a given recruit will pick UM over their respective school.

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When coaches land schools on probation for recruiting violations, that’s not “speculative.” You should look up the definition of the word. But hey, if you think Isaiah Sykes picked Central Florida over Michigan because Beilein can’t recruit, well, I don’t know what to tell you.

I have to admit, psychologically, I don’t understand “fans” who constantly complain in the midst of a really successful time for the basketball program. The time to complain was when we missed the NCAA tournament for 10 straight years from 1998-2008. Before Beilein, we hadn’t won the Big Ten title since 1986. Now we have two in three years, and were a missed tip-in away from three in a row. Before 2013, we hadn’t made the title game for 20 years. Before 2014, we hadn’t made it to back-to-back Elite Eights since 1993 and 1994. We lose Burke and Hardaway, Mitch goes down, and we go 15-3 in the Big Ten (arguably the best conference in the country)? It’s amazing this group of bumbling idiots have managed to achieve that level of success.

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They can go on winning recruiting wars if they like. I’ll take wins on the court. I particularly appreciate the “other big ten teams” bit considering Michigan has won more league titles than anyone in the past three years, and was an inch away from sweeping all three. There’s also nobody in the COUNTRY that has won more games in the NCAA tournament in the past two.

So they can laugh all they want. Sounds pretty stupid to me.

But, no, I was referring to most Michigan fans. I’m well plugged in and most Michigan fans think Beilein is doing just fine recruiting now, after some concern earlier in his tenure.

I’d also be willing to bet there’s a lot of hyperbole in your statements, but if you want to believe that other boards create a stigma for Beilein, then we can just agree to disagree, because it’s a silly thing that I don’t care to worry about.

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Yes it is highly speculative to use past infractions and assume it is still happening with no evidence.

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When coaches land schools on probation for recruiting violations, that's not "speculative." You should look up the definition of the word. But hey, if you think Isaiah Sykes picked Central Florida over Michigan because Beilein can't recruit, well, I don't know what to tell you.

I have to admit, psychologically, I don’t understand “fans” who constantly complain in the midst of a really successful time for the basketball program. The time to complain was when we missed the NCAA tournament for 10 straight years from 1998-2008. Before Beilein, we hadn’t won the Big Ten title since 1986. Now we have two in three years, and were a missed tip-in away from three in a row. Before 2013, we hadn’t made the title game for 20 years. Before 2014, we hadn’t made it to back-to-back Elite Eights since 1993 and 1994. We lose Burke and Hardaway, Mitch goes down, and we go 15-3 in the Big Ten (arguably the best conference in the country)? It’s amazing this group of bumbling idiots have managed to achieve that level of success.

Isiah Sykes picked UCF over UM for a variety of reasons that I will not reveal out of respect for his privacy. As a matter that I have personal knowledge of, you shouldn’t speculate to the extent of implicitly suggesting that Isiah went to UCF for reasons that are questionable or not within the confines of amateurism.

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They can go on winning recruiting wars if they like. I'll take wins on the court. I particularly appreciate the "other big ten teams" bit considering Michigan has won more league titles than anyone in the past three years, and was an inch away from sweeping all three. There's also nobody in the COUNTRY that has won more games in the NCAA tournament in the past two.

So they can laugh all they want. Sounds pretty stupid to me.

But, no, I was referring to most Michigan fans. I’m well plugged in and most Michigan fans think Beilein is doing just fine recruiting now, after some concern earlier in his tenure.

I’d also be willing to bet there’s a lot of hyperbole in your statements, but if you want to believe that other boards create a stigma for Beilein, then we can just agree to disagree, because it’s a silly thing that I don’t care to worry about.

I love it when 2 years completely wipeout the previous 5 years of below average/ mediocrity. So based on your approach, if we fail to make the tourney this year then we should be concerned?

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New Mexico will hire La Lumiere head coach Alan Huss to staff, source told ESPN. First reported by @GeoffGrammer

— Jeff Goodman (@GoodmanESPN) August 12, 2014
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I love it when 2 years completely wipeout the previous 5 years of below average/ mediocrity. So based on your approach, if we fail to make the tourney this year then we should be concerned?

I have to ask…how long have you been a Michigan fan? I’ve been a Michigan fan since the mid-80s, and I can tell you…after what happened in this program for a decade, those years (in total) were not below average or mediocre. Five years that look like that, if they happened now, would feel below average or mediocre. But at the time, they were a MASSIVE step forward for the program. And in fact a necessary one to then reach the heights of the past two years.

The thing about those two years…they’re not just any two years, they are the LAST two years. So, yes, I won’t start questioning Beilein until he actually starts to fail reasonable expectations. Because he hasn’t even done THAT (even though they’ve been raised significantly from early in his tenure) in four years.

And if you honestly think we haven’t recruited as well in the past two years (because you have to view college basketball recruiting in two year cycles) as we did five-plus years ago (hint: it’s a landslide in the rankings, though I know that’s not everything), then…I guess you’ll get your day in the sun in a year or two.

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Exactly . . . there was nothing “mediocre” or “below average” about 2010-2011. The team started Big Ten play 1-6, had a great turnaround to make the tourney (as a #8 seed), spanked a talented Tennessee team by 30+ points, and then took #1 seeded Duke down to the final shot of the game.

In 2011-2012, though we were unfortunately upset in the tourney in the first round (it does happen - ask Duke, losers in the first round in two of the past three NCAA tourneys), that does not mar winning a share of the Big Ten title with a freshman PG (after Morris unexpectedly left) and sharing that title with two #1 seeds in MSU and OSU (both of whom we beat at home that year).

Nor was 2008-2009 “mediocre” - non-conference wins over Duke and UCLA, a tourney appearance, and a win.

The only mediocre year we’ve had under JB was 2009-2010, unless you think he should have done better with the scrap heap of a roster Amaker left him with during his first year.

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I love it when 2 years completely wipeout the previous 5 years of below average/ mediocrity. So based on your approach, if we fail to make the tourney this year then we should be concerned?

I have to ask…how long have you been a Michigan fan? I’ve been a Michigan fan since the mid-80s, and I can tell you…after what happened in this program for a decade, those years (in total) were not below average or mediocre. Five years that look like that, if they happened now, would feel below average or mediocre. But at the time, they were a MASSIVE step forward for the program. And in fact a necessary one to then reach the heights of the past two years.

The thing about those two years…they’re not just any two years, they are the LAST two years. So, yes, I won’t start questioning Beilein until he actually starts to fail reasonable expectations. Because he hasn’t even done THAT (even though they’ve been raised significantly from early in his tenure) in four years.

And if you honestly think we haven’t recruited as well in the past two years (because you have to view college basketball recruiting in two year cycles) as we did five-plus years ago (hint: it’s a landslide in the rankings, though I know that’s not everything), then…I guess you’ll get your day in the sun in a year or two.

Long enough to know that in the first 5 years of JB’s tenure he went 91-77 overall and 43-47 in conference, whereas Amaker went 86-71 and 35-45 and long enough to know that the “massive” step forward wasn’t really massive at all, but rather just more of the same under the previous administration.

Again, if your approach is “what have you done for me lately”, then if we fail to make the tourney, will you stop trusting JB?

Why do you “have” to look at recruiting in 2 year cycles? That’s just an excuse for not recruiting at the level that correlates with reasonable expectations. Again, under your “what have you done for me lately” approach, JB should be fired for the 2015 class.

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New Mexico will hire La Lumiere head coach Alan Huss to staff, source told ESPN. First reported by @GeoffGrammer

— Jeff Goodman (@GoodmanESPN) August 12, 2014

He can recruit. Pissed a lot of people off in Indiana High School.

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Exactly . . . there was nothing "mediocre" or "below average" about 2010-2011. The team started Big Ten play 1-6, had a great turnaround to make the tourney (as a #8 seed), spanked a talented Tennessee team by 30+ points, and then took #1 seeded Duke down to the final shot of the game.

In 2011-2012, though we were unfortunately upset in the tourney in the first round (it does happen - ask Duke, losers in the first round in two of the past three NCAA tourneys), that does not mar winning a share of the Big Ten title with a freshman PG (after Morris unexpectedly left) and sharing that title with two #1 seeds in MSU and OSU (both of whom we beat at home that year).

Nor was 2008-2009 “mediocre” - non-conference wins over Duke and UCLA, a tourney appearance, and a win.

The only mediocre year we’ve had under JB was 2009-2010, unless you think he should have done better with the scrap heap of a roster Amaker left him with during his first year.

Translation, let’s isolate the good portions of those years no matter how scant, and highlight those aspects while simultaneously ignoring any and everything else so that I can maintain my theory that JB is God.

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Long enough to know that in the first 5 years of JB's tenure he went 91-77 overall and 43-47 in conference, whereas Amaker went 86-71 and 35-45 and long enough to know that the "massive" step forward wasn't really massive at all, but rather just more of the same under the previous administration.

Um, three tourney appearances and a conference championship vs. none of those things. Try again.

Again, if your approach is "what have you done for me lately", then if we fail to make the tourney, will you stop trusting JB?

What are you talking about? I never said “what have you done for me lately?” YOU are saying “what have you done for me lately?”

Why do you "have" to look at recruiting in 2 year cycles? That's just an excuse for not recruiting at the level that correlates with reasonable expectations. Again, under your "what have you done for me lately" approach, JB should be fired for the 2015 class.

I think you have yourself so twisted up that you’re literally not making sense any more.

Cheers.

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Guestavo - who doesn't play within the rules and what's my evidence? Really? I'm sure Calipari's running a clean program at Kentucky. I mean, he only landed both UMass and Memphis on probation, and that wild jump in Derrick Rose's SAT score to make him eligible was surely legit. Ask people in the know about Darrell Arthur's recruitment - when Tommy Amaker inquired about him, he was told it would take $50,000 to get him. He wound up at Kansas, of course, another squeaky clean program (where, incidentally, Calipari and Bill Self served as assistant coaches to Larry Brown, who has landed several programs on probation for recruiting violations).

I’d also suggest that while Coach K may have run a clean program at one time, the stuff about Boozer’s dad and Duhon’s mom landing jobs from his friends, the Lance Thomas jewelry situation, and the number of kids he keeps landing from Chicago raise some questions for me.

And apparently attending class is optional at UNC. Nor did PJ Hairston receive any improper benefits (oh wait, he did). Nor does Roy Williams have any history with that sort of thing (oh wait, he does - see Lester Earl).

And Jalen Coleman’s uncle (who was apparently running his recruitment at one time - which coincided with him starting to look at new schools) is the same guy Rick Pitino hired to so he could land Marquis Teague, but then Teague went to Kentucky (and Pitino immediately fired his new “assistant” coach).

And, dating back a few years, ask some people in the know how Arkansas managed to land Patrick Beverly after he was all-but-committed to Michigan?

And then maybe do an internet search on Sam Gilbert and John Wooden, see what you find. Then do a search on Sean Higgins and his UCLA recruitment. And then go ahead and tell me it’s really far-fetched that after a few years of mediocre basketball, some influential UCLA alums might be “helping” Steve Alford land guys like Jonah Bolden and Kevon Looney. You know, Alford, the same guy who went to bat for Pierre Pierce.

But no, since the NCAA does not have subpoena power, finding “direct” evidence of cheating is not nearly as easy as it could be. But there are plenty of proven instances, and if you listen to anyone who covers recruiting closely, it exists. But if you believed that, then you’d also have to believe that there are certain kids Beilein can’t recruit, and that would damage your overall narrative about Beilein’s recruiting.

There is no doubt that there are an almost infinite number of examples of dirty play in college basketball recruiting and many of them at the top programs, including Michigan with Ed Martin. Anyone, who doesn’t believe that is being naive or an ostrich.

But, what does any of that have to do with the Coleman recruitment? I find it hard to believe we actively recruited the kid for years and none of that stuff came out until after we took another recruit at the same spot. For whatever reason, the staff chose a DIII transfer in Robinson over Coleman and I think it is fair to question that decision, just as it is fair to have faith in the coaching staff.

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No, my point is that this constant narrative about how JB isn’t a good recruiter ignores the fact that after the Ed Martin scandal, the UM administration is never going to allow us to play the recruiting game the way many schools play it.

MattD, we literally never made the tourney once under Amaker. We never had a first round pick under Amaker. We never came close to contending for a Big Ten title under Amaker. Claiming Beilein has been “more of the same” is nuts. Sure, he struggled in his first year, and it took a long time to land top recruits - that’s exactly what happens when a school has been off the college basketball radar for a long time. In Amaker’s final year, he failed to make the tourney with seniors Harris, Petway, Sims, and Abram on the team, and left Beilein with a young, generally untalented roster. No coach was going to thrive in that situation, unless you hire someone like Calipari and allow him to work his recruiting “magic.”

But, maybe I am starting to understand your agenda a little more. Did you think Amaker was unfairly let go?