Long enough to know that in the first 5 years of JB's tenure he went 91-77 overall and 43-47 in conference, whereas Amaker went 86-71 and 35-45 and long enough to know that the "massive" step forward wasn't really massive at all, but rather just more of the same under the previous administration.
Um, three tourney appearances and a conference championship vs. none of those things. Try again.
Again, if your approach is "what have you done for me lately", then if we fail to make the tourney, will you stop trusting JB?
What are you talking about? I never said “what have you done for me lately?” YOU are saying “what have you done for me lately?”
Why do you "have" to look at recruiting in 2 year cycles? That's just an excuse for not recruiting at the level that correlates with reasonable expectations. Again, under your "what have you done for me lately" approach, JB should be fired for the 2015 class.
I think you have yourself so twisted up that you’re literally not making sense any more.
Cheers.
Just because the team makes the tourney, does that mean that a JB team was actually better tha an Amaker team? No it simply means that .500 record in conference play during JB’s tenure was a good enough resume to make the tourney during that time period where it was not during the Amaker regime. Honestly, who cares about MAKING the tourney, it’s what you do in it that people remember. Tell me who lost in the second round last year or the year before in every bracket…exactly, nobody cares.
You are the one that referenced “the last 2 years as his most successful” in support of your deference. Therefore, if that is your approach, then if we don’t make the tourney would your trust in JB be compromised?
Nothing twisted, you, along with most everybody else, knows that we have not met expectations for recruiting in 2015, and quite frankly 2014 was a bit suspect as well. 2015 has been downright horribleness we’re being frank.
No, my point is that this constant narrative about how JB isn't a good recruiter ignores the fact that after the Ed Martin scandal, the UM administration is never going to allow us to play the recruiting game the way many schools play it.
MattD, we literally never made the tourney once under Amaker. We never had a first round pick under Amaker. We never came close to contending for a Big Ten title under Amaker. Claiming Beilein has been “more of the same” is nuts. Sure, he struggled in his first year, and it took a long time to land top recruits - that’s exactly what happens when a school has been off the college basketball radar for a long time. In Amaker’s final year, he failed to make the tourney with seniors Harris, Petway, Sims, and Abram on the team, and left Beilein with a young, generally untalented roster. No coach was going to thrive in that situation, unless you hire someone like Calipari and allow him to work his recruiting “magic.”
But, maybe I am starting to understand your agenda a little more. Did you think Amaker was unfairly let go?
No, Amaker was at the exact opposite end of the spectrum. Great recruiter but simply could not develop players. Players rarely improved under Tommy. I want a balance of both rather than extremely slanted toward one end of the continuum. There will be some years where you lose a plethora of contributors and need to lean on recruiting to obtain instant impact freshman and other years where you retain a nice amount of starters and you need good players that are complimentary in nature initially, with the potential to grow into significant contributors as sophomores.
We have only made the tourney once under JB with a .500 conference record, and that occurred in a year when we also beat Duke and UCLA in the non-conference. The Big Ten was also far better at that time than it was when Amaker was finishing .500 in conference play (with, I might add, usually a really weak non-conference resume).
The past three seasons, we’ve finished first, second, and first in the conference. So you can hardly call that “squeaking in.”
Making the tournament is a huge stepping stone, even if the difference between some of Amaker’s teams and JB’s 2009 team wasn’t that great. You think it wouldn’t have helped Amaker immensely with recruiting if he had made the tourney even once? Of course it would have. And it was a strong knock that he had never done it.
It’s entirely possible we won’t make the tourney again in a given year. That would suck, of course, but it’s pretty rare when a team makes it every year. Heck, Kentucky didn’t make it last year, for example. And if I recall correctly, Roy Williams had an NIT team recently at UNC. UCLA missed the tourney a few times. Syracuse missed it at least once recently. So did Arizona. The only teams that seem to make it year-after-year are MSU, Kansas and Duke. If it becomes a trend, as opposed to happening once every 7-8 years, then I’d be a little concerned. I don’t see that happening, though.
I don’t expect Beilein to bat 1.000, and I don’t see anything wrong with saying you think this was a mistake. But I’m kind of surprised at the level of confidence some of you guys have in your own opinions. Each of you is some random guy behind a keyboard. We all are. At the other end of the spectrum is Beilein. He has hung 3 banners in 3 years at a program that was left for dead not too long ago.
Gotta stop using Appeal to Authority fallacy
I’m making a distinction that’s you’re ignoring. Nowhere did I argue that Beilein was right. Nowhere did I argue that you’re wrong. Nowhere did I argue that questioning Beilein is wrong. Any post that arguing that Beilein probably made a mistake is completely reasonable. That’s not what’s happening. You’re approximately 1,000% sure you’re correct, and that’s what seems odd.
Overall, I’d be hard pressed to complain about JB. The man has generally maintained an upward trajectory. Are there some things I don’t like about his philosophical approach to the game, sure, but that’s any coach. My primary concern at this point is that we’re not replenishing the talent that we’re losing. In 3 years we’ve lost Burke, THJ, Nik, Gr3, Mitch and Caris. We’ve replaced them with Walton, Irvin and Chatman…which are comparable in terms of talent. However, once we get past that, I don’t think that any of our other current replacements, at this point, are comparable in terms of talent. There is a healthy drop off and im fearful that a blown 16 cycle could really put us in danger.
this is definitely a bummer. I really liked Coleman’s game and he would have been electric in this system.
this is the very reason I don’t follow recruiting as closely as some on here do. I don’t get too attached to a player until he suits up for us. Recruiting is a tricky game, and often a head scratcher.
people need to remember with recruiting we don’t really know much. People claiming JB can’t recruit, or claiming in retrospect that Coleman and his family were bad news, or claiming this or that — it’s all just speculation. Unless JB or Coleman’s family speak on the matter (which they won’t), All we really know or are going to know is he ain’t coming here.
all of this back and forth arguing - with one particular poster often assuming he is more right in his opinion than others - is just a waste of time.
Finally, and this is most important: Michigan Basketball will be fine. There really is no need to freak out over this.
What is comical is the people who think they can evaluate and project talent better than coaches who hang banners. It is ok to cock an eyebrow and wonder what they see or project, but to basically call them dumb when they have proven they know what they are doing is hilarious. I will take your side of the argument when you attach a link to the photos of the banners you have hung.
C’mon man, stop it. I can understand being deferential but this is ridiculous. Nobody, and I mean nobody, the staff included, thinks Duncan Robinson, is or will be a better player than Jalen Coleman. If you want to label me as “basically calling the staff dumb” because of that opinion, then I guess im guilty because in my opinion, at this point in time, that was a very dumb decision. Banners don’t mean that dumb decisions aren’t made. If we’re judging this move independently of PAST success and PAST failures, it appears to be a dumb move, plain and simple.
How do you know what their evaluation is of Robinson compared to Coleman? Are you related? Friend of the family? Perhaps a team manager? You have zero way of possibly knowing this.
If their evaluation of Robinson is favorable in relation to Coleman, then the entire staff should take a trip to LensCrafters.
According to you? Why? What makes you above them in regards to projecting talent? Never saw a link to the banners or rings of any kind that you have earned in the game of basketball.
You got banned for this I am a better basketball mind than you all crap before and as far as I am concerned, you should be there again. You are completely insulting.
I'm fearful that a blown 16 cycle could really put us in danger.
I wouldn’t worry about a blown 16 cycle until it happens. We seem to be in good shape for 2016 kids as of now.
The problem with that approach is that once 16 is blown we’re screwed for a minimum of 2 years.
I mean seriously, does the “we seem to be in good shape for X class” which is 2 years away carry any weight at all? We make a living of leading and then fading into obscurity. Kennard, Booker, Coleman, Bluiett, Prather…
This is very reminiscent of the discussion about Wilson a year or so ago. MattD couldn’t believe we were recruiting an unranked kid who couldn’t even post up a smaller teammate in practice. Slow, no motor. Average athlete. Weak. Did I forget anything? Now that he’s ranked and has proven himself, your tune has changed.
Re: Coleman, his recruitment went south awhile ago. He cooled on us. No recruit had more of an opportunity to get to know us. His other offers are not as good as his ranking. Yet he demurred. He was not coming here. If he ends up at Illinois or ND, what does that tell you?
As for Robinson, why would anyone comment on him as a primary creator? Walton and Chatman will be the primary creators the next two seasons. Robinson has more game than he’s getting credit for, but he’s not Nik Stauskas. Nik was a GD first team All American. Robinson can easily be a Diebler or Kenny Kaminski type of player; he can make almost half his threes at 6’8". He can spread the floor. You can’t see how valuable he can be? Maybe you’re blinded by the D3 pedigree.
Re: Dozier, we’re getting an official visit. We have a legit chance.
Been working all day… I think everyone has said their piece here and haven’t had a chance to keep up with everything. Seems like everyone needs to remember the notion of being civil across the board.