we probably won’t ever win another game.
What is really the underlying reason that we SUPPOSEDLY lead so often in a recruitment only to see it fizzle at the end? We all love JB and he was relegated to recruiting lesser known prospects as he rebuilt the program, but sustainability is predicated on talent infusion annually. I tend to agree with MattD and Guestavo on their takes. I expect to lose the majority of recruiting battles to the blue bloods, but if ND and Illinois start becoming more appealing than UM, I have to ask why? Obviously Coleman was known by the staff to be slipping away before Robinson emerged.Not pointing figures to other schools, but JB runs the cleanest program in the college basketball world.
Prove it or it’s just speculation.
Not my job to prove it. But aren’t we all speculating on why JB stopped recruiting Coleman.
Since when does im concerned with recruiting translate to "tearing down" the guy.
You called the staff “dumb” in this thread. You also said this is “pathetic” in another.
Do you not understand the difference between that and “I’m concerned with recruiting”?
It was reported that JB guaranteed Robinson a crack at the 2 when that is obviously not a position that fits him within the structure of our offense. That being said, what is the difference between Coleman hypothetically wanting a starting spot and Robinson wanting to play the 2?
If Beilein agrees that Robinson “obviously” does not fit the 2, then you’re right. However, I doubt Beilein both guaranteed that, and agrees with you. My guess is he offered him a chance to compete there, same as everyone else, and also knows that Duncan is the type of kid that will do what’s best for the team regardless.
First, I already debunked your whole “MattD only cares about star rankings” theory in a previous thread laying out my history, and you know that. It’s about talent, not rankings. Conversely, any time we get a recruit, you are optimistic about it regardless of whether it flies in the face of reason or not. So you’re essentially guilty of the same thing you accuse me of.
See LA - here is the thing, we didn’t make deep tourney runs without elite talent. Whether you want to admit it or not, players win championships and not coaches.
Prove it or it's just speculation.
This is widely-believed “speculation”. Widely believed by players, widely believed by reporters, widely believed by other coaches, widely believed by the basketball industry (shoe companies, et al).
So, I ask…what’s your point? Do you honestly believe that Michigan is not operating at a severe disadvantage, all else being equal?
Thank goodness all else is not equal - meaning we have great tradition, a first class university, top notch facilities, one of the best coaching staffs in the country, etc. - or we’d be royally screwed.
Most people widely believe JB can’t recruit…so what’s your point?
The chances of getting Dozier are almost nonexistent.Where are you hearing this?
Most people widely believe JB can't recruit.......so what's your point?
So all this success is just good fortune that underranked players chose us? OK. I’d probably go crazy too if I believed I was wishing on lottery tickets all the time.
Another way to look at it: why the consternation? Just par for the course. Why would he start “recruiting” now?
Most people widely believe JB can't recruit.......so what's your point?So all this success is just good fortune that underranked players chose us? OK. I’d probably go crazy too if I believed I was wishing on lottery tickets all the time.
Another way to look at it: why the consternation? Just par for the course. Why would he start “recruiting” now?
If you didn’t notice, our 2 years of tourney success has a direct correlation with elite recruiting. All other years have been above average at best.
The chances of getting Dozier are almost nonexistent.Where are you hearing this?
His entire family attended or currently attends USC. I’d say the chances are pretty slim.
Everybody still on board with the Duncan commit now? You can take me off that train. Really shaking my head at this one. How do you sacrifice Jalen Coleman for Duncan Robinson? I know there will be many that say it was trending in the wrong direction with Coleman, but so what, you hold out for a guy like that, especially if the alternative is Robinson. I really have to wonder what the staff was thinking. No way can this be justified with the "we wanted Robinson" theory.The coaches have said, from Day 1, that they want players who want to play for Michigan. Coleman visited multiple times and had all the opportunity in the world to commit. Yet he didn’t. That’s his loss. Beilein has built a formidable program and if Coleman wants to pass that up for a second tier team like Illinois or Notre Dame, that’s his prerogative. We’ll win without him.
Sure, DRobinson may end up being a step down from Coleman as an individual player. But basketball is a team sport, and if UM basketball over the past 5 years hasn’t beaten that into fans’ heads, I don’t know what will. You don’t need the best individual collection of individual talent - although UM will still have plenty - you need the best team. And if the coaches think Robinson will fit into that team concept better than Coleman, I believe them.
I want to play for Michigan. I visit roughly 15 times per year. Do you want me to suit up? That logic isn’t too solid in my opinion.
You have it wrong my friend, this is OUR loss, not Coleman’s. fact is that our team simply isn’t as good with Robinson as they would’ve been with Coleman. The other fact is that Coleman will make the team he chooses better than Robinson will make UM. This is what you call opportunity cost and the staff made a very poor decision in my view.
I appreciate your passion, but those aren’t facts. Strong opinions based on your scouting. Coleman may be the better player and younger, but Robinson might still make the team better. What is Coleman’s biggest strength? Shooting. Robinson’s? Same. Plus Robinson gets a year in the program to work on his ball screen game and honestly, I don’t know if that’s a strength of Coleman. Plus, the coaches may really want to utilize chatman as a ball handler and creator.
C’mon man, are you really going to question Coleman’s creation ability while inherently suggesting that Robinson is adequate in that regard. Really?
Guestavo - who doesn’t play within the rules and what’s my evidence? Really? I’m sure Calipari’s running a clean program at Kentucky. I mean, he only landed both UMass and Memphis on probation, and that wild jump in Derrick Rose’s SAT score to make him eligible was surely legit. Ask people in the know about Darrell Arthur’s recruitment - when Tommy Amaker inquired about him, he was told it would take $50,000 to get him. He wound up at Kansas, of course, another squeaky clean program (where, incidentally, Calipari and Bill Self served as assistant coaches to Larry Brown, who has landed several programs on probation for recruiting violations).
I’d also suggest that while Coach K may have run a clean program at one time, the stuff about Boozer’s dad and Duhon’s mom landing jobs from his friends, the Lance Thomas jewelry situation, and the number of kids he keeps landing from Chicago raise some questions for me.
And apparently attending class is optional at UNC. Nor did PJ Hairston receive any improper benefits (oh wait, he did). Nor does Roy Williams have any history with that sort of thing (oh wait, he does - see Lester Earl).
And Jalen Coleman’s uncle (who was apparently running his recruitment at one time - which coincided with him starting to look at new schools) is the same guy Rick Pitino hired to so he could land Marquis Teague, but then Teague went to Kentucky (and Pitino immediately fired his new “assistant” coach).
And, dating back a few years, ask some people in the know how Arkansas managed to land Patrick Beverly after he was all-but-committed to Michigan?
And then maybe do an internet search on Sam Gilbert and John Wooden, see what you find. Then do a search on Sean Higgins and his UCLA recruitment. And then go ahead and tell me it’s really far-fetched that after a few years of mediocre basketball, some influential UCLA alums might be “helping” Steve Alford land guys like Jonah Bolden and Kevon Looney. You know, Alford, the same guy who went to bat for Pierre Pierce.
But no, since the NCAA does not have subpoena power, finding “direct” evidence of cheating is not nearly as easy as it could be. But there are plenty of proven instances, and if you listen to anyone who covers recruiting closely, it exists. But if you believed that, then you’d also have to believe that there are certain kids Beilein can’t recruit, and that would damage your overall narrative about Beilein’s recruiting.
If you didn't notice, our 2 years of tourney success has a direct correlation with elite recruiting. All other years have been above average at best.
I did notice, and my point is…how could the guy that recruited at an “elite” level also be called a guy that can’t recruit?
Anyway, I think your assertion that most people widely believe he can’t recruit is also wrong.
UM fanbase always claiming a kid has character issues or something shady is happening if UM does not land them. Pathetic.
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If you didn’t notice, our 2 years of tourney success has a direct correlation with elite recruiting. All other years have been above average at best.I did notice, and my point is…how could the guy that recruited at an “elite” level also be called a guy that can’t recruit?
Anyway, I think your assertion that most people widely believe he can’t recruit is also wrong.
The same way that a coach that doesn’t “cheat” every year can be considered a cheater.
Get real, the big question that Everyone had about JB coming in was whether he could recruit upper tier talent, that was a stigma associated with JB. I remember a recruit’s father (maybe Irvin’s) saying something to the extent that JB just won a big ten title with a bunch of mid majors, so it should improve with real talent. That confirmed that there is a stigma
UM fanbase always claiming a kid has character issues or something shady is happening if UM does not land them. Pathetic.
On the contrary, we didn’t question vast majority of the recruits that did not end up here.
The same way that a coach that doesn't "cheat" every year can be considered a cheater.
Um…yes, precisely. JB doesn’t pull in three draft picks every year, but he’s still a recruiter. I’m glad we agree.
Get real, the big question that Everyone had about JB coming in was whether he could recruit upper tier talent, that was a stigma associated with JB. I remember a recruit's father (maybe Irvin's) saying something to the extent that JB just won a big ten title with a bunch of mid majors, so it should improve with real talent. That confirmed that there is a stigma
Yes, there was a stigma. And then he took the program to a national championship game and an Elite Eight, put 5 guys into the pros in two years, with two lottery picks and two other first rounders. Thus ended the stigma.
No, “pathetic” is ignoring reality to push your fantasy agenda. I have no idea if Coleman has “character” issues. I do know his uncle was running his recruitment for awhile, and that’s not a positive sign, though apparently he’s not anymore. With him, I assume we just decided he doesn’t seem to really want to be here, and so we’ll find some kids who do. Cheating happens all over the place. Look at the time when Michigan recruited as well as anyone in the country (circa 1985 to 1995). Kids/families/handlers/AAU coaches were on the take back then, and not much has changed. There are still plenty of kids for us to pursue, but the pool of top 50 players is always going to be somewhat limited.
UM fanbase always claiming a kid has character issues or something shady is happening if UM does not land them. Pathetic.On the contrary, we didn’t question vast majority of the recruits that did not end up here.
Who is we?