Sorry, thought you were talking basketball with your 2003 comment.
MSU is not just âphysicalâ. MSU practices cheating and flopping. Refs kiss Izzoâs ass while allowing Izzoâs teams to get away with premeditated murder night in and night out.
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Did u watch the game? Zak turned the ball over twice late and missed four shots badly when they were just running down the clock then forcing him to throw up a bad shot.
Take those away he is 6-11 when the game mattered. All his bad plays were when the game was out of reach. Stats are deceiving and I knew one of you would bring that up.
He forced almost nothing. Took all great looks. Played with in himself and the offense, played great d, didnât over dribble and didnât force anything or try and be a hero. That is exactly the type of game I want out of Zak, Iâm not going to worry about two turnovers and four misses when weâre up twenty killing clock.
The previous games numbers looked better but he made horrible decisions numerous times in critical points of the game which helped them stay in it and then take the lead. So yea those stats literally mean nothing to me Because when the game was in doubt he played awesome and he was one of the main reasons we pulled away.
He had a couple ill-advised drives when the game was in question, a couple bad passes, and missed a WIDE open three from the corner, but on the whole he had a very good game.
Trust me itâs not concerning level of insanity. Beilein is in control of the talent brought in, how itâs developed, how many times they beat their biggest rival though and thatâs what creates the rivalry. Winning 6 out 16 meetings isnât going to bring this rivalry to a peak.Iâm not using it against Beilein it is what it is, Izzo values the rivalry much more than Beilein does.
Yet they can still be beaten by teams that can come close to matching their physicality. Referees arenât going to call every foul on every play because games would last 3-4 hours and 6-7 players would foul out every game. Get quick guards that can penetrate get in the lane because MSU hasnât had very good perimeter defenders since Travis Walton and maybe Gary Harris, opens things up down low and on the wings. The problem is the past couple years and even this year they are just not equipped to lay a beating on MSU.
Look, Izzo is a Hall of Fame coach. From 1999-2008, while Michigan missed the tourney for 10 straight years, Izzo - helped greatly by the fallout from the Ed Martin situation - was building a powerhouse program. Like it or not, theyâve been the top program in the Big Ten since 1999 (the only to win it all) and a top 5 program nationally. Yep, top 5. Iâd say only Duke, UNC, UK, and KU are clearly ahead of them.
I think it would have been asking a bit much for JB to come in and have a winning record against them right off the bat. At the height of our program under JB - when Izzo himself was reeling in McDonalds All Americans, we went 6-2 over an 8 game stretch. Thatâs DAMN good.
I donât think anyone would disagree with your contention that JB faced an uphill battle vs Izzo.
That said, nearly all of your arguments are based on what Michigan accomplished in 2013 and 2014. Hereâs the thing, itâs not 2014 any more.
What are we doing now, and in the future should be the relevant criteria in my opinion.
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Correct they had a 6-2 run are we saying the other 8 games donât matter? Beilein has his chance against MSU go 2-0 and he deserves credit if his team who starts 2 seniors, 2 juniors and a soph canât get it done then what is the bar?
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Sure, the present is very relevant, but the past is too. Tom Izzoâs team is 12-8. Obviously that doesnât mean heâs suddenly a mediocre coach, right?
We absolutely need to get things back on track, no question.
No, weâre saying that any reasonable person would give a new coach some time to challenge someone like Izzo, so the first 2-3 years arenât really that relevant. The past five are, the good and the bad.
Yes, we have a team with experience, but unfortunately our experienced players arenât that good.
The bottom line on M/MSU is this: If weâd known at Beileinâs hiring that MSU would still clearly be the superior program a decade later, no one wouldâve been cool with that.
Granted: Izzo had a huge head start, and Beilein has had his moments. The fact that U-M turned its program around at Breslin is pretty sweet.
But letâs not kid ourselves by arbitrarily framing the rivalryâs results (i.e., we went 6-2 in this one conveniently delineated stretch). They still win just about every head-to-head recruiting battle with us, theyâve had their way when weâve played lately and theyâve built an identity and a confidence as a program that Michigan still is trying to match.
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So if MSU misses the tourney a year after losing in the first round does @MattD call for Izzo to be fired?
Yeah, he sure played well if you take away the bad stuff he did!
Where is the perspective? MSU is a national, perennial power. Michigan had been in shambles, while MSU hovered in and out of great and elite, before Beilein got here. And you think Beilein got hired to entirely shift the balance of power, in 10 years at the latest? These last two seasons, and probably this one, have been disappointingâboth when compared to MSU and independentlyâbut just try to be realistic. No matter how much we dislike it, MSU is in that tier of programs that falls just behind the Dukes, Kentuckys, and Kansases.
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How long did it take Izzo to get them there.
He made the NIT each of his first 2 years, after inheriting a program that had made the tournament 5 out of the last 6 years, then a run of Sweet 16-Final Four-Champs-Final four. But Iâm saying itâs ludicrous for âIzzoâ to be the standard. He is the gold standard. He is a living legend, and one of the top 5-10 coaches in the game. Where does he belong in history? Top 20? Higher?
Thereâs a reason we, and every other team not named Duke, Kentucky, or Kansas, are constantly pining for what MSU has. They own very rare territory. Feel free to tell me Im wrong, if JBâs successor gets us there, in 3-10 years.
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Bottom line is this: if weâd known that in 9 seasons that JB would make the tourney six of those seasons (with two of the misses coming in his first three seasons) and heâd win two conference titles and make a title game and an Elite Eight, most would definitely be okay with it. See how easy it was to reframe it arbitrarily?
Canât set arbitrary standards in a post where you also call out arbitrary standards.
Heâs changed the standard for our program. He may fall victim to those standards if he doesnât turn it around this year or next. We will see.
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Depends if itâs a three year lull with no true upward trajectory on the recruiting front. But when you have a 5star that will return, what will likely be the best true post in the conference in Nick Ward, while adding Jaren Jackson, Xavier Tillman and Brian Bowen then Iâd say things are alright.
Reminder though - Iâm the one that expressly stated we have to wait to the end of the year to make any determinations on Beilein whereas you were calling for his head after the Illinois loss. How quickly we forget
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I think thats why the NYC games were so surprising (in a good way). Games we were hoping to show well in and we ended up breaking them open 25m in. Good teams smell blood and try to break your back (we had a chance against Wiscy but 2-3 horrible possessions/shots laterâŚ). Good teams also donât let their backs get broken like ours were last year IU/MSU at home.
I donât know if writing âstreet fightâ on the wall was all they needed, but you can see that fire in the team from time to time. Just not for more than 5-10m stretches.
Keeping an open mind on what may happen next, but its hard to debate that the IU/MSU slate probably determines our trajectory and ultimately our season.