Does anyone know when Robinson can join the team?
After the transfer orientation at the end of August.
It seemed, from the practice video, Irvin was getting even more lift on his jump shot this year and it made me happy. I suspect that will help him in those instances where he catches, jumps and shoots.
Does anyone know when Robinson can join the team?After the transfer orientation at the end of August.
Should help the scout team a lot too.
I have to laugh at the notion that verticality has no purpose in our offense, along with the simultaneous assertion Robinson had no ball skills. He did, you know, average 11 and then 13 points a game, and he wasn’t a great shooter. So how did he score those points? I’m not sure about everyone else, but I remember a lot of dunks and strong finishes on the break. So let’s say Dawkins is 90% the jumper Robinson is (seems very possible given the video so far) and a slightly better shooter (not a high bar to pass - Glenn was not a great shooter by any stretch). Why couldn’t he, for example, be a 13-15 point scorer in this offense by the time he’s a junior?
It’s entirely possible MAAR will be better - or worse. But if Dawkins can shoot the ball, he’ll be just fine in this offense, as he’s already shown the ability to finish at the rim, which should only improve as he adds strength and weight.
I have to laugh at the notion that verticality has no purpose in our offense, along with the simultaneous assertion Robinson had no ball skills. He did, you know, average 11 and then 13 points a game, and he wasn't a great shooter. So how did he score those points? I'm not sure about everyone else, but I remember a lot of dunks and strong finishes on the break. So let's say Dawkins is 90% the jumper Robinson is (seems very possible given the video so far) and a slightly better shooter (not a high bar to pass - Glenn was not a great shooter by any stretch). Why couldn't he, for example, be a 13-15 point scorer in this offense by the time he's a junior?It’s entirely possible MAAR will be better - or worse. But if Dawkins can shoot the ball, he’ll be just fine in this offense, as he’s already shown the ability to finish at the rim, which should only improve as he adds strength and weight.
Who said verticality has no use in our offense? Might help if you actually cited correctly if you are going to covertly call me out?
Go read your post where you claim “the only utility verticality has in the UM offense” is with a 5 rolling to the basket, or a penetrator finishing off the pick and roll. You backed yourself into a corner with an absolute statement that, as it turns out, isn’t accurate.
People will argue with MattD just to argue. Sad.
Go read your post where you claim "the only utility verticality has in the UM offense" is with a 5 rolling to the basket, or a penetrator finishing off the pick and roll. You backed yourself into a corner with an absolute statement that, as it turns out, isn't accurate.
Go read your post where you claim "the only utility verticality has in the UM offense" is with a 5 rolling to the basket, or a penetrator finishing off the pick and roll. You backed yourself into a corner with an absolute statement that, as it turns out, isn't accurate.
But you failed to point out in your original post the all important caveat that “unless you’re a 5 or penetrator” - in other words you attempted to paint the picture of me claiming that verticality has no utility period in our offense, which couldn’t be further from the truth. So I didn’t “back myself into a corner”, but rather you attempted to discredit me by omitting the full context of my statement. Basically you are conveying false info about me for no apparent reason.
You continue to play these games because you don’t agree with my views, and that’s ok, people will eventually see what’s going on here.
Verticality is useful for a basket player in almost all facets of a game except free throws and wide open shots. How many wide open shots do you think Irvin gets? Even in the scenario you have handpicked (when Irvin receives a ball after a guard is double teamed) he usually has a defender (often possessing verticality) closing out on him very quickly.Irvin is already a great catch and shoot player, so how much can increased verticality really help him in that regard?
Irvin looked very comfortable with the two dribble pull up to me. He’s getting great elevation on his jumper and gets it off easily. Five inches on his vertical will also help him finish in transition. He was finishing hard in three man weave drills, etc. and I don’t think you would have seen that last year.
Tim Hardaway Jr. was a guy that used his athleticism mostly for shooting over people and finishing in transition. Worked out well for him.
Irvin is a 3&d guy. Dawkins is a 3&d guy. MattD isn’t speaking Martian. Any coach is taking a wing with ball skills over a run/jump athlete, though a blend is ideal.
I’d take Nik and Caris over Tim and Glenn.
Go read your post where you claim "the only utility verticality has in the UM offense" is with a 5 rolling to the basket, or a penetrator finishing off the pick and roll. You backed yourself into a corner with an absolute statement that, as it turns out, isn't accurate.Go read your post where you claim "the only utility verticality has in the UM offense" is with a 5 rolling to the basket, or a penetrator finishing off the pick and roll. You backed yourself into a corner with an absolute statement that, as it turns out, isn't accurate.But you failed to point out in your original post the all important caveat that “unless you’re a 5 or penetrator” - in other words you attempted to paint the picture of me claiming that verticality has no utility period in our offense, which couldn’t be further from the truth.
I would say Michigan badly needs a ‘finisher’ on one of the wings. Someone that can catch drop off passes, cuts and backdoors and finish them at the rim. Dawkins appears to be the best option for that role on the roster.
Matt, you’re being disingenuous. The original argument was whether Dawkins or MAAR will be the better long term player. Frankly, I have no idea - could be either.
But, your claim was that it would be MAAR, because while you claim Dawkins has “good” jumping ability (a bit of an undersell if you ask me), leaping ability isn’t that useful in this offense unless you are a five or someone finishing off dribble penetration.
And again, my response is, how did Glenn Robinson get his points? For any fan who has watched the past couple years, it’s pretty obviously - from using his leaping ability. So again, if Dawkins can shoot and finish at the rim, I see no reason why he can’t give us Glenn’s production and maybe a little more if he stays longer than the two years Glenn stayed. Do you? And maybe you are still right - maybe MAAR still has a higher ceiling. But to suggest a guy like Dawkins will be limited in our offense ignores what Robinson did.
I might also add Hardaway thrived and didn’t have the greatest ball skills either, so if Dawkins can improve his shot to that level, who knows what he can do.
Ok LAW and MattD, you guys have gone back and forth, now let’s have some fun.
Player comparisons (you can use best case scenarios or average improvement, or body types, whatever, your choice):
MAAR: sounds crazy, but Deron Williams @ Illinois - 6’3" combo that can get his and create for others. Not saying he’s going to be a POY candidate or NBA all-star but his game reminds me of Deron
AD: reminds me of one of my all-time favorites, Kerry Kittles
Feel free to disagree
Ok LAW and MattD, you guys have gone back and forth, now let's have some fun.Player comparisons (you can use best case scenarios or average improvement, or body types, whatever, your choice):
MAAR: sounds crazy, but Deron Williams @ Illinois - 6’3" combo that can get his and create for others. Not saying he’s going to be a POY candidate or NBA all-star but his game reminds me of Deron
AD: reminds me of one of my all-time favorites, Kerry KittlesFeel free to disagree
AD looks like Kittles too!
Guestavo,
UMHoops is great because it is, among other things, REASONABLE. I mean seriously, the people behind this site deserve an award… I certainly am not arguing with anyone for the sake of argument. Steel sharpens Steel. When someone says something that seems unreasonable it is to everyone’s benefit to point it out. It is certainly not doing anyone any favors to let their pseudo-reasonable-theories-and-statements to stand unchecked.
What many of you call reasonable, really means delusionally biased. Notice no one argued against Wolverine3 saying an absolute statement like “And there is no way MAAR has more long term potential then AD” … but somewhere along the line Dawkins became this 5* future Kobe Bryant player on this board.
Its all see through and shameful.
People… We can discuss whether MAAR or Dawkins has more upside without taking everything so personally. Calling people ‘shameful’ is a bit of a stretch because they disagree with you…
I think there’s an argument either way to be honest… Is it easier to add athleticism or ball skills? Probably ball skills, but there’s also people like GR3 who have a tough time of that. You could also say that it’s easier for people that already have good ball skills to reach their potential faster – I think that’s a fair assessment on MAAR.
Aubrey seems like a class 3&D (I believe @guestavo said that in this thread) and I definitely think he has long term potential because of his raw abilities.
Matt, you're being disingenuous. The original argument was whether Dawkins or MAAR will be the better long term player. Frankly, I have no idea - could be either.But, your claim was that it would be MAAR, because while you claim Dawkins has “good” jumping ability (a bit of an undersell if you ask me), leaping ability isn’t that useful in this offense unless you are a five or someone finishing off dribble penetration.
And again, my response is, how did Glenn Robinson get his points? For any fan who has watched the past couple years, it’s pretty obviously - from using his leaping ability. So again, if Dawkins can shoot and finish at the rim, I see no reason why he can’t give us Glenn’s production and maybe a little more if he stays longer than the two years Glenn stayed. Do you? And maybe you are still right - maybe MAAR still has a higher ceiling. But to suggest a guy like Dawkins will be limited in our offense ignores what Robinson did.
I might also add Hardaway thrived and didn’t have the greatest ball skills either, so if Dawkins can improve his shot to that level, who knows what he can do.
No, you’re being disingenuous by attempting to call me out for something I never claimed and then failing to recant despite the fact that it was pointed out to you and was easily visible.
As you said, the debate is whether MAAR has more long term potential than Dawkins at UM, not whether or not Dawkins can produce at the level GR3 did. I said that verticality has very little use in this system unless you’re a 5 or a penetrator and you essentially countered with using GR3 production as the baseline for gauging Dawkins’ potential. This is common sense if GR3 is the baseline - GR3 was the 3rd and even 4th option on the floor for his entire tenure at UM because his skillset simply didn’t allow him to be use those skills because we aren’t a transition oriented team and GR3 couldn’t create off the bounce. Did GR3 get his fair share off oops and lobs, sure he did, but would anyone dare argue that GR3 was more valuable in our system in relation to Caris and Nik? . Using Caris/Nik as the baseline for MAAR, it should be evident to anyone that a player with the ability to create off the bounce and use PnR is much more valuable in our system.
Since you want to talk about production, how about this - GR3 was at best the third option last year and averaged 13ppg on 22.3% usage, while Caris averaged 13 ppg with less usage and identical nearly identical rebounds and more than 2 times the assists, all while playing meaningful minutes for the first time in his career vs a guy that was a starter his entire first year.
To wrap this up - given the precedent at UM a player with ball handling ability simply has more opportunity and more potential to be an impact player and a top option in relation to a player that is a good athlete without ball handling ability. This was my point the entire time and you know it
Guestavo,UMHoops is great because it is, among other things, REASONABLE. I mean seriously, the people behind this site deserve an award… I certainly am not arguing with anyone for the sake of argument. Steel sharpens Steel. When someone says something that seems unreasonable it is to everyone’s benefit to point it out. It is certainly not doing anyone any favors to let their pseudo-reasonable-theories-and-statements to stand unchecked.
Problem with this theory is that no one thinks it’s unreasonable for Duncan Robinson to be a great pickup while some do think it’s unreasonable to claim the staff made a mistake in recruiting. In other words, as long as everything is flowers and candy it’s reasonable, but if someone dare claims a mistake was made then it’s “unreasonable”
Go read your post where you claim "the only utility verticality has in the UM offense" is with a 5 rolling to the basket, or a penetrator finishing off the pick and roll. You backed yourself into a corner with an absolute statement that, as it turns out, isn't accurate.Go read your post where you claim "the only utility verticality has in the UM offense" is with a 5 rolling to the basket, or a penetrator finishing off the pick and roll. You backed yourself into a corner with an absolute statement that, as it turns out, isn't accurate.But you failed to point out in your original post the all important caveat that “unless you’re a 5 or penetrator” - in other words you attempted to paint the picture of me claiming that verticality has no utility period in our offense, which couldn’t be further from the truth.
I would say Michigan badly needs a ‘finisher’ on one of the wings. Someone that can catch drop off passes, cuts and backdoors and finish them at the rim. Dawkins appears to be the best option for that role on the roster.
Never said we didn’t need a finisher, just said MAAR has more long term potential than AD and verticality is diminished in this offense if you don’t have handles