GRIII’s verticality won the game at Purdue this past year.
GR3’s lack of handle caused him to be ineffective for long stretches during his stint at UM. It also cost him 30 spots in the draft and 6-8 million dollars
Matt, if you’re entire point is simply that someone with great ball skills has a higher ceiling in this offense than someone without them, sure I agree with that. I don’t know if MAAR has or will have great ball skills, and I don’t know if Dawkins can’t develop them, but we’ll find out.
The point I took issue with was the assertion that unless you’re a five man rolling to the basket, or a penetrating guard, verticality is not a useful trait in this offense. We both agree Glenn isn’t a good ball handler, and wasn’t an exceptional shooter (30.8% from three this year). Yet he did average 13.2 a game as a sophomore, with most of those points coming from his vertical jumping ability. I think it’s reasonable to assume had he stayed: (1) his outside shooting would have improved a bit; and (2) his scoring probably goes up to something like 15 a game this year, and maybe 16-17 a game if he stays all four years (highly unlikely).
I also think it’s entirely possible that Dawkins, while not quite the leaper Glenn is (few are), will be a better shooter, and thus fully capable of matching Glenn’s production as the second or third leading scorer on the team in the future, after Zak is gone and Dawkins (potentially) inherits the starting three position. (Glenn was tied for 3rd in scoring in 2013, barely third in 2014 just a fraction behind Caris).
Again, I would fully agree guys with strong ball skills have the potential to do more. I think that’s pretty true in any offense, really - Brandon Dawson is a much better athlete than Denzel Valentine, for example, but Valentine is a good passer, is now showing some ability to shoot, and it wouldn’t shock me at all if he scored more points per game next year than Dawson.
I can also see a guy like Irvin - while he doesn’t have much off the dribble and won’t be used in the pick and roll much - having a big year scoring the basketball, both this year and beyond. Hardaway, too, had some big years for us and was hardly a guy with great ball skills.
Ideally, in a few years, Dawkins could be the third or fourth option and still give us 12-13 night. Whether MAAR is among the top 1-3 options, we’ll certainly see. He has a shot, for sure, but if we happen to land a PJ Dozier in 2015, for example, I have to think he will beat out MAAR and play alongside Walton in the Levert role. And clearly, we’re recruiting some top 2016 two guards - will MAAR be good enough to hold off a Langford, Battle (I know you don’t think we’re getting him), or whoever else we might recruit if we don’t land one of those two (like that Brown kid, for example, who looked pretty good to me on film). Hard to say. In all likelihood, if MAAR is a starter by 2016, that means he’s a really good player.
And I know you scoff at this notion, but I’ve seen a LOT of people with close ties to the coaching staff who believe Duncan Robinson is your starting two guard in 2015.
I also think it’s entirely possible that Dawkins, while not quite the leaper Glenn is (few are), will be a better shooter
Ideally, in a few years, Dawkins could be the third or fourth option and still give us 12-13 night. Whether MAAR is among the top 1-3 options, we’ll certainly see. He has a shot, for sure, but if we happen to land a PJ Dozier in 2015, for example, I have to think he will beat out MAAR and play alongside Walton in the Levert role. And clearly, we’re recruiting some top 2016 two guards - will MAAR be good enough to hold off a Langford, Battle (I know you don’t think we’re getting him), or whoever else we might recruit if we don’t land one of those two (like that Brown kid, for example, who looked pretty good to me on film). Hard to say. In all likelihood, if MAAR is a starter by 2016, that means he’s a really good player.
And I know you scoff at this notion, but I’ve seen a LOT of people with close ties to the coaching staff who believe Duncan Robinson is your starting two guard in 2015.
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Based on what is Dawkins a better shooter than GR#?
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I don’t think we get more than 1 top 100 guard so Walton-PJ-MAAR is possible. Bruce Brown doesn’t look nearly as good as MAAR to me.
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If Duncan Robinson is UM’s starting two guard in 2015, we will be an NIT team. Quote me on that.
I don’t scoff at that notion at all, the fact that its somewhat realistic is the true problem.
Interesting LAW on your comment regarding Duncan Robinson as a starting 2. I like him as a guy who does a lot of the same things Irvin does. Bascically a guy who is going to hunt down shots. Guess I just saw him in the 3/4 mold. Now I know that Duncan has good ball skills, but I cannot see him defending athletic 2s. I have wondered if in the future we could play a guy like Dawkins at the 3 or 4 on offence while we have him guard players at the 2 as he would be much better suited to guard the position than Duncan.
GRIII's verticality won the game at Purdue this past year.
Technically, that was more body control than verticality.
I never said Dawkins is a better shooter than Robinson, I said I think he has the potential to be. His shot looks nice on film, the practice reports have him making his threes, and since Robinson shot only 30.8% from three this year, I don’t think we’re talking about a really high bar anyway.
We’ll see as to whether we get more than one top 100 guard. There’s absolutely no way to know, either way, right now.
I like your prediction about being an NIT team. Seems a bit over-the-top and panicky. Who knows? Sure, if Walton, Irvin, and Chatman all have great seasons, and all leave for the NBA, then it’s quite possible. If all those guys are back - which seems likely to me - I’d be shocked if Duncan Robinson is so bad at the two guard that we are suddenly an NIT team.
As far as his ability to guard other, athletic two guards, how many of those type of players did we face all year? I count Gary Harris (who had no problem scoring against us anyway), Rodney Hood, I guess Nick Johnson (although, at 6-2, I’m generally OK with a 6-6, slower guy guarding him), and James Young/the Harrisons in the tourney? And Nik was hardly a stellar defender anyway.
To me, it all comes down to Duncan Robinson’s offensive ability, and if he can be a consistently good shooter even without a ton off the dribble, that will help us a lot. Would I like to have Dozier? Sure. Battle or Langford? Sure. But I don’t think Duncan Robinson signals the beginning of doom and gloom for the basketball program.
Even average athletes will break duncan Robinson down off the dribble.
We’ll see. Even if that happens, he’s got a lot of length and height to compensate for it. And again, there are only so many players we play against who are even capable of putting up huge scoring games. Is a guy like Ben Brust suddenly going to go for 30 against us? Highly unlikely. If he had to guard a 6-5, future pro every night (like a Gary Harris or Rodney Hood), I might be a little worried.
I don’t care where they are now…lets see who they become! Enjoy the ride fella’s!
I don't care where they are now....lets see who they become! Enjoy the ride fella's!
Like that comment a lot. And I know some of you like to judge objectively, but at the end of the day the proof is in the pudding. And, for those that oppose my trust in JB and staff so far there has been 2 Big Ten championships and a final 4 and elite 8 in past 3 seasons. It is not like the athletic directors care how many stars are beside a guys name, they care about how many rafters are hung. And to win a share and outright B1G title in years when it was strongest conference in the country is a hell of an accomplishment and as long as those keep coming then no one should care what type of player is brought in. Enjoy the ride.
People question Robinson’s talent and can’t appreciate a 6’8" 45 percent 3 point volume shooter. That is elite at any level. The best two teams I think next year (Wiscy, followed by Mich) will feature no where close to top recruiting classes. Indiana has that covered and look at where they are.
a 2 year sample isn’t “proof in the pudding”
Trey,Tim,Nik
Walton, Caris, Stauskas
we have had 3 creators starting.
Walton-Chatman- ???
Robinson and Irvin ain’t it. Has to be MAAR.
Lets give Robinson a little time. Looks to have a functionable handle and I think you will see much improved athleticism as the guy might not even be done growing into his body. He has long arms that may indicate that and seems to be still growing from reports. He seems to play the same role for his team as Stauskas played for Michigan, and like Nick he seems to use hesitations that show a threat of a shot and can sell the defender on it because they shoot it so well.
And, yes, three years not two guestavo, the share of the Big Ten title was three years ago. And if they could have held the 5 point lead in last minute at Iowa would be three years in a row with atleast a share of the title, to me is proof in the pudding. But, being the best team in the best conference over last 3 years in my opinion should give the coaches the benefit of the doubt to do things their way.
You have Caris as a creator with Stauskas and Walton last year but he isn’t going to create this year? I think Caris, Walton and Chatman can be the 3 creators you’re looking for.
Oh, and Tim wasn’t exactly a creator)more like a scorer) and I think Zak Irvin will compare very favorably to Timmy when it is all said and done.
I also agree that if Duncan Robinson is starting in 2015, that we’re screwed. To me, Duncan Robinson is at most a tall version of sophomore Matt Vogrich, just a background guy good for a few minutes off the bench, but simply won’t be able to defend well enough.
Trey,Tim,NikWalton, Caris, Stauskas
we have had 3 creators starting.
Walton-Chatman- ???
Robinson and Irvin ain’t it. Has to be MAAR.
With Burke, he had the ball in his hands a lot, most of the time really. Those other guys could definitely create a little but did so rarely. Tim did, yes, and Nik, well not a whole ton, but seldomly did as a freshman. Generally there is a go to scorer; last year with Caris and Nik was probably most balanced in terms of having two creators really share the load, and Walton did the least amount of creating of any point since CJ Lee. Really there needs to be two guys that can really handle and create and another that can do what Tim did his frosh year. Very basic handling, and screen and rolls that worked because of the ablity to shoot off the dribble which both Zak and Duncan will be able to do.
Pretty sure @NorthernBlue wrote exactly what I was thinking. The ball has generally been in the hands of two players to make things happen… Trey’s sophomore year we were as close to one guy as you’ll really ever get.
This year I think those two guys are LeVert and Walton. Irvin will create in a sense, but mostly jump shots for himself IMO, and I think that’s okay.
Guestavo,
I also don’t agree that there is a required 3 creators per team for possible success. Ability to create is always an asset but the staff will work with the pieces they have…Even if there was a magic formula of 3 creators per team you are worried about 2015 when we have not even begun 2014, we still have a scholarship to give in '15, and another scholarship might open up because of nba draft 2015 or some other reason. Things might work out where Robinson is the worst player on the team…Does that mean we are will not be a good team? You act like he is definitely going to be playing major minutes…I don’t know, for the sake of argument, let’s assume Robinson is one of the the worst player on the team in 2015. Does this make his offer a bad idea? I don’t know: Did we lose the national championship game because Matt Vogrich wasn’t a good defender and because Blake Mclimans didn’t have good hops?