On Michigan and defense


#1

This discussion was created from comments split from: 2016 Point Guard Recruiting (Derryck Thornton, Cassius Winston, Quentin Goodin, Jamal Murray, etc.).


#2
We're definitely doing better than we were before Beilein got here, although Amaker did pull in some pretty decent talent (but didn't do enough with it). I just think we may have reached the glass ceiling as far as high-profile recruiting goes, and will find it very difficult to break through to the next level, no matter how many guys we send to the NBA.

Beilein has put to rest every other “Beilein can’t…”. Can’t close on top 20 prospects is all that’s left.

Hasn’t put to rest every “Beilein can’t”…still hasn’t produced a good defense in his tenure at Um and I don’t think that’s likely to change anytime soon. In my opinion that is the one aspect holding us back from truly elite status.


#3
We're definitely doing better than we were before Beilein got here, although Amaker did pull in some pretty decent talent (but didn't do enough with it). I just think we may have reached the glass ceiling as far as high-profile recruiting goes, and will find it very difficult to break through to the next level, no matter how many guys we send to the NBA.

Beilein has put to rest every other “Beilein can’t…”. Can’t close on top 20 prospects is all that’s left.

Hasn’t put to rest every “Beilein can’t”…still hasn’t produced a good defense in his tenure at Um and I don’t think that’s likely to change anytime soon. In my opinion that is the one aspect holding us back from truly elite status.

Agree that one has not been put to rest, although it does not bother me in my perception of Beilein as Michigan’s coach (personally speaking). I also don’t see that likely changing anytime soon unless either

A) Beilein is able to get a couple above average defenders to stick around for 4 years or
B) A shift in recruiting of bigs away from ones that rely on charge calls for defense (something I hope we MAY be seeing with the Tyler Cook offer, etc.).


#4

Dingo - hate to break it to you, but Cook isn’t a very good defender. On the other hand, Teske is superb. I think our D will be at least average come 2017.


#5

Matt, wasn’t trying to specifically cite Cook, more trying to highlight that I am hoping there is some minor shift in recruiting targets since Beilein’s comments about Wilson maybe being a shot-blocker and hoping that helps. Did not intend to use him as the de facto example.

Also, this discussion has gotten rather off topic, so I take that as my sign to return to my usual lurking.


#6
We're definitely doing better than we were before Beilein got here, although Amaker did pull in some pretty decent talent (but didn't do enough with it). I just think we may have reached the glass ceiling as far as high-profile recruiting goes, and will find it very difficult to break through to the next level, no matter how many guys we send to the NBA.

Beilein has put to rest every other “Beilein can’t…”. Can’t close on top 20 prospects is all that’s left.

Hasn’t put to rest every “Beilein can’t”…still hasn’t produced a good defense in his tenure at Um and I don’t think that’s likely to change anytime soon. In my opinion that is the one aspect holding us back from truly elite status.

I wonder if that will ever really systematically change.

It seems more of a choice IMO. Putting more of a premium on skill set over athleticism and having a smaller “4” seem like tough obstacles.


#7
B) A shift in recruiting of bigs away from ones that rely on charge calls for defense

My understanding is that this is precisely what Teske is supposed to be.


#8
We're definitely doing better than we were before Beilein got here, although Amaker did pull in some pretty decent talent (but didn't do enough with it). I just think we may have reached the glass ceiling as far as high-profile recruiting goes, and will find it very difficult to break through to the next level, no matter how many guys we send to the NBA.

Beilein has put to rest every other “Beilein can’t…”. Can’t close on top 20 prospects is all that’s left.

Hasn’t put to rest every “Beilein can’t”…still hasn’t produced a good defense in his tenure at Um and I don’t think that’s likely to change anytime soon. In my opinion that is the one aspect holding us back from truly elite status.

Somehow I knew that you wouldn’t let that go. Tough to develop defense when you have so much turnover. But I was referring to recruiting.


#9

Voltron that is indeed my hope, I’m pretty excited for Teske as the Big for the 2016 class.


#10
We're definitely doing better than we were before Beilein got here, although Amaker did pull in some pretty decent talent (but didn't do enough with it). I just think we may have reached the glass ceiling as far as high-profile recruiting goes, and will find it very difficult to break through to the next level, no matter how many guys we send to the NBA.

Beilein has put to rest every other “Beilein can’t…”. Can’t close on top 20 prospects is all that’s left.

Hasn’t put to rest every “Beilein can’t”…still hasn’t produced a good defense in his tenure at Um and I don’t think that’s likely to change anytime soon. In my opinion that is the one aspect holding us back from truly elite status.

Somehow I knew that you wouldn’t let that go. Tough to develop defense when you have so much turnover. But I was referring to recruiting.


Not necessarily, UK started five freshman and was a much better defensive team than UM. Defense is more about athleticism, physicality and mental tenacity.

#11

Well, it’s a little easier to be elite defensively when you literally get your pick of five star recruits every year. And I didn’t think their defense against us was anything special. Their awareness on the pick and roll was pretty poor, and for all their length and athleticism on the wings they weren’t able to stop Nik at all. I would say Arizona, for example, was a far more impressive defensive team.


#12

And their defense the year before last was god awful, especially after Noel went down. And yes, we did carve them up pretty well.


#13

With our offense being so active and with so much constant motion going on, I wouldn’t be surprised if that had a tiny bit of an effect on our defense. Maybe they’re just a wee bit tired. I’m not saying that’s the issue at all but it may be part of it.


#14
We're definitely doing better than we were before Beilein got here, although Amaker did pull in some pretty decent talent (but didn't do enough with it). I just think we may have reached the glass ceiling as far as high-profile recruiting goes, and will find it very difficult to break through to the next level, no matter how many guys we send to the NBA.

Beilein has put to rest every other “Beilein can’t…”. Can’t close on top 20 prospects is all that’s left.

Hasn’t put to rest every “Beilein can’t”…still hasn’t produced a good defense in his tenure at Um and I don’t think that’s likely to change anytime soon. In my opinion that is the one aspect holding us back from truly elite status.

Somehow I knew that you wouldn’t let that go. Tough to develop defense when you have so much turnover. But I was referring to recruiting.


Not necessarily, UK started five freshman and was a much better defensive team than UM. Defense is more about athleticism, physicality and mental tenacity.

They beat us on a last second shot. How does that make their defense team than Michigan?


#15
We're definitely doing better than we were before Beilein got here, although Amaker did pull in some pretty decent talent (but didn't do enough with it). I just think we may have reached the glass ceiling as far as high-profile recruiting goes, and will find it very difficult to break through to the next level, no matter how many guys we send to the NBA.

Beilein has put to rest every other “Beilein can’t…”. Can’t close on top 20 prospects is all that’s left.

Hasn’t put to rest every “Beilein can’t”…still hasn’t produced a good defense in his tenure at Um and I don’t think that’s likely to change anytime soon. In my opinion that is the one aspect holding us back from truly elite status.

Somehow I knew that you wouldn’t let that go. Tough to develop defense when you have so much turnover. But I was referring to recruiting.


Not necessarily, UK started five freshman and was a much better defensive team than UM. Defense is more about athleticism, physicality and mental tenacity.

They beat us on a last second shot. How does that make their defense team than Michigan?

The attempt to classify a UK team as good, bad or otherwise based on 1 game is quite misguided, no? On the other hand, our defense has ranged from average to downright horrible under JB.

Let’s stop making excuses and just call it how it is…JB isn’t a good defensive coach.


#16
And their defense the year before last was god awful, especially after Noel went down. And yes, we did carve them up pretty well.

Apparently not well enough


#17

Another reason not to read the forum…MD beating down on JB!


#18

I think the “bad defensive coach” stuff is a bit overblown. There’s no way the 2012 team tied OSU and MSU for a conference title without being pretty good defensively. Both of those teams had far more talent than we did, and yet we managed to tie them and beat both at home.

I’d also say JB’s first few teams (including the tourney team of 2009) played solid defense, and so did the 2011 tourney team. We absolutely crushed a far more athletic Tennessee team in the tourney, and took Duke right to the brink - they had no answer for the 1-3-1.

2012-2013 ushered in a whole new era of Michigan basketball, where we literally had more offensive talent than any team we played. The team was young, and it’s hard to get great effort on the defensive end when your players know they can fall back on their offense and win almost any game.

Last year was somewhat similar. For a “bad” defensive team, we went 15-3 in the Big Ten and won it by three games, which is almost unheard of. And it was a strong conference. Was our defense great? No. Was it awful? I don’t know how you go 15-3 in the best conference in the country if your defense is awful.


#19

I don’t think JB is a bad “defensive coach” per se. I would bet her could turn our team into a defensive team if he really wanted to, but that’s not the system he runs.
Again - I think it comes down to placing a premium on skill set over athleticism and playing a 4 guard system.

There are pro’s and con’s of each.
We don’t make as many turnovers, but we give up more boards.
We often have better scorers and can space the floor on offense but struggle to defend the post.

Likewise, Izzo often has good defensive teams but may struggle in other areas (depending on the players he gets). His 4 man Dawson has attempted less than 10 3’s over 3 years or something? Crazy to us. Not to them.

If you flip the rosters of Izzo and Beilein, I’d bet their problems would flip as well.

JMO


#20

JB gets picked as one of the top ten coaches in NCAAB and now he can’t coach defense…:Look at the results…