So now we're suddenly assuming that Robinson can't shoot off of screens?
So now we’re suddenly assuming he can?
I fail to see how you can assume that he can’t come off of screens and shoot unless you’ve actually seen him take shots while coming off screens and seen him miss them. Until then we still don’t know, and you can’t say that he is unable to. You assume these things with no backup, and then if anyone else makes an assumption you are the first to jump on them for doing it.
You assume that he can without backup. So basically you are guilty of the same thing you accuse me of, on other words, you appear to be a hypocrite as it relates to this dialogue.
By the way, not once did I claim Robinson does not have the ability to catch and shoot off of screens. You are making that assumption, not me
I really don’t want to keep pushing this, but I never did assume DR can shoot off screens. You assumed he couldn’t, and I simply said “So now we’re suddenly assuming that Robinson can’t shoot off of screens?” I don’t know if you comprehended that differently than I intended, but I did not mean to say that he CAN, just that we don’t know yet.
No, I never said he can’t shoot of screens, that is simply incorrect. You assumed that I was implicitly conveying that message, and incorrect in doing so
Well, if you can show us that Robinson or anyone else on Michigan can ONLY shoot and are WITHOUT anything more in the way of skills, have at it. I suspect you’ll try to wriggle out of that, since it’s silly. Every player has multiple skills, obviously. It’s simply a matter of how well they do things other than shooting. Despite your claim, there is no such thing as “shooting without more” and there never will be.
Last year, Michigan won a tough conference by three full games by doing three things well: 1. Shooting, especially 3 point shooting; 2. Taking care of the ball; 3. Avoiding fouls and out scoring opponents at the FT line. They did not win with strong rebounding or defense, or by better overall physicality and athleticism. They were mediocre at best in all of those areas, but still won the Big Ten by three full games, against teams that were much better in those areas. If you need any other evidence that success can be had by shooting well while doing the things you favor not so well, I can’t help you.
So now we're suddenly assuming that Robinson can't shoot off of screens?
So now we’re suddenly assuming he can?
I fail to see how you can assume that he can’t come off of screens and shoot unless you’ve actually seen him take shots while coming off screens and seen him miss them. Until then we still don’t know, and you can’t say that he is unable to. You assume these things with no backup, and then if anyone else makes an assumption you are the first to jump on them for doing it.
You assume that he can without backup. So basically you are guilty of the same thing you accuse me of, on other words, you appear to be a hypocrite as it relates to this dialogue.
By the way, not once did I claim Robinson does not have the ability to catch and shoot off of screens. You are making that assumption, not me
I really don’t want to keep pushing this, but I never did assume DR can shoot off screens. You assumed he couldn’t, and I simply said “So now we’re suddenly assuming that Robinson can’t shoot off of screens?” I don’t know if you comprehended that differently than I intended, but I did not mean to say that he CAN, just that we don’t know yet.
No, I never said he can’t shoot of screens, that is simply incorrect. You assumed that I was implicitly conveying that message, and incorrect in doing so
So we both incorrectly assumed the other person was assuming something? Sounds ok to me.
Well, if you can show us that Robinson or anyone else on Michigan can ONLY shoot and are WITHOUT anything more in the way of skills, have at it. I suspect you'll try to wriggle out of that, since it's silly. Every player has multiple skills, obviously. It's simply a matter of how well they do things other than shooting. Despite your claim, there is no such thing as "shooting without more" and there never will be.
Last year, Michigan won a tough conference by three full games by doing three things well: 1. Shooting, especially 3 point shooting; 2. Taking care of the ball; 3. Avoiding fouls and out scoring opponents at the FT line. They did not win with strong rebounding or defense, or by better overall physicality and athleticism. They were mediocre at best in all of those areas, but still won the Big Ten by three full games, against teams that were much better in those areas. If you need any other evidence that success can be had by shooting well while doing the things you favor not so well, I can’t help you.
Well, if you can show us that Robinson or anyone else on Michigan can ONLY shoot and are WITHOUT anything more in the way of skills, have at it. I suspect you'll try to wriggle out of that, since it's silly. Every player has multiple skills, obviously. It's simply a matter of how well they do things other than shooting. Despite your claim, there is no such thing as "shooting without more" and there never will be.
Last year, Michigan won a tough conference by three full games by doing three things well: 1. Shooting, especially 3 point shooting; 2. Taking care of the ball; 3. Avoiding fouls and out scoring opponents at the FT line. They did not win with strong rebounding or defense, or by better overall physicality and athleticism. They were mediocre at best in all of those areas, but still won the Big Ten by three full games, against teams that were much better in those areas. If you need any other evidence that success can be had by shooting well while doing the things you favor not so well, I can’t help you.
Wiggle out of what? I simply said that shooting, without more is of limited value without other players to create open looks. Every player has multiple skills - that is quite possibly the dumbest statement I’ve ever heard. Sure, everyone can bounce a ball…does that mean you want them handling the ball in a half court set?
We won the big ten last year because we had creators that enabled us to get open looks from deep. Shooting, without the ability to create or finish doesn’t do much in my opinion.
Well, you’ve just admitted that the concept of “shooting without more” is the dumbest thing you’ve ever heard, since by your own admission, no player is only capable of “just shooting”. If you’re claiming that anyone here has said that a team can win if it just shoots and does nothing else, that’s an even dumber claim.
And no, I wouldn’t want Duncan Robinson running my offense in a half court set. So what? I wouldn’t have wanted Glenn Robinson doing that either, but that doesn’t mean he didn’t have multiple skills.
How about we just wait and see how Duncan Robinson actually plays, just like we did with Ricky Doyle?
No, what i said is your declaration every player has multiple skills is very silly.
And no, how about talking about players strengths/weaknesses now rather than taking a retrospective approach…since that’s kind of the point of having a forum. If that’s the case, let’s just read the box scores next year. SMH
Longtime lurker, didn’t really want to get dragged into posting but I can’t resist.
You guys are setting yourselves up for disappointment. There simply aren’t enough creators from the wing on the roster going forward and Duncan Robinson is not going to remedy that. At best, he’s a redundant offensive talent along the lines of Irvin who has shown no evidence of being a capable enough athlete to defend athletic wings in this league. We needed someone like Jalen Coleman or Prince Ali and we struck out. Now it’s down to MAAR and Chatman who can create off the bounce on the wing. They’d better both pan out and stay healthy. That should be a cause for concern unless you take the “who are we to question Beilein!” approach. All too reminiscent of the shouting down of anyone who dared to point out that Hoke’s highly ranked recruiting classes were filled with redundant talent that was short on fast-twitch playmaking the past few years.
Longtime lurker, didn't really want to get dragged into posting but I can't resist.
You guys are setting yourselves up for disappointment. There simply aren’t enough creators from the wing on the roster going forward and Duncan Robinson is not going to remedy that. At best, he’s a redundant offensive talent along the lines of Irvin who has shown no evidence of being a capable enough athlete to defend athletic wings in this league. We needed someone like Jalen Coleman or Prince Ali and we struck out. Now it’s down to MAAR and Chatman who can create off the bounce on the wing. They’d better both pan out and stay healthy. That should be a cause for concern unless you take the “who are we to question Beilein!” approach. All too reminiscent of the shouting down of anyone who dared to point out that Hoke’s highly ranked recruiting classes were filled with redundant talent that was short on fast-twitch playmaking the past few years.
When did Hoke lead Michigan to a National championship game or multiple Big Ten titles? I’ll wait while you tell me the years… I’ll take my chances with Beilein and his staff, some of you are blowing things out of proportion.
Longtime lurker, didn't really want to get dragged into posting but I can't resist.
You guys are setting yourselves up for disappointment. There simply aren’t enough creators from the wing on the roster going forward and Duncan Robinson is not going to remedy that. At best, he’s a redundant offensive talent along the lines of Irvin who has shown no evidence of being a capable enough athlete to defend athletic wings in this league. We needed someone like Jalen Coleman or Prince Ali and we struck out. Now it’s down to MAAR and Chatman who can create off the bounce on the wing. They’d better both pan out and stay healthy. That should be a cause for concern unless you take the “who are we to question Beilein!” approach. All too reminiscent of the shouting down of anyone who dared to point out that Hoke’s highly ranked recruiting classes were filled with redundant talent that was short on fast-twitch playmaking the past few years.
When did Hoke lead Michigan to a National championship game or multiple Big Ten titles? I’ll wait while you tell me the years… I’ll take my chances with Beilein and his staff, some of you are blowing things out of proportion.
Guys - let me interject before the thread gets closed. Let’s just keep it on the topic of Robinson/ shooting since that is what the OP was originally about. Not every topic has to end up being about JB/the program as a whole
Last year, Michigan won a tough conference by three full games by doing three things well: 1. Shooting, especially 3 point shooting; 2. Taking care of the ball; 3. Avoiding fouls and out scoring opponents at the FT line. They did not win with strong rebounding or defense, or by better overall physicality and athleticism. They were mediocre at best in all of those areas, but still won the Big Ten by three full games, against teams that were much better in those areas. If you need any other evidence that success can be had by shooting well while doing the things you favor not so well, I can’t help you.
Last year, Michigan had Walton, Stauskus, and LeVert creating off the bounce which left shooters open, especially 3 point shooters. The best example of how things will go without sufficient creators off the bounce is Gerry McNamara after Carmelo and Hakim Warrick left. He was a shooter that was never open because whoever was guarding him was able to stick to him at all times and didn’t have to collapse to help on any of his teammates penetrating. His 3PT% and FG% declined significantly in his final two years even though he was the same player with more experience. Duncan Robinson may be a lights out shooter, but if he doesn’t have someone else to create that shot, he’s not going to be productive.
^^^^^^
Exactly the point I’ve been trying to make for the duration of this thread. “Just shooters” are only as good as the creators feeding the ball to them
There is nothing wrong with the assertion that shooters are only as successful as the creators they play with, but what seems to get lost is you really only need one creator on the floor at a time with three shooters and a big. There were two back-to-back seasons in which we only really had one creator on the entire roster. 2010-11 it was Darius Morris and 2011-12 it was Trey Burke. Maybe you could count Hardaway both of those seasons, but I’m not sure I would define him as a creator. In both of those seasons our offense wasn’t as productive as the last two seasons were, but our offense was certainly still good and we got plenty of open looks for our one-dimensional shooters using just one (maybe two) playmakers/creators. One of those seasons even resulted in a B1G championship. I keep seeing on here this immense concern over not having enough playmakers down the road. MAAR and Chatman seem to have the ability to create for others and we don’t exactly know what will happen with Walton, Dozier, and the 2016 targets. It is not a foregone conclusion that we are losing Walton after this season. Seems like a lot of worry just to worry.
I’ll sum up my opinion for the third time - having “just shooters” is great…IF you have other players(plural) that can create open looks for the “just shooters”…ie the Leverts and Julius Randles. Having a roster full of Duncans and Irvins is not a good recipe for success in my view. As I always say…balance, balance, balance
Great point ajerome33, plus we can’t forget that we have some very high profile targets at the point guard position that have high interest in us. It is VERY unlikely that our roster will not have ANY new creators as this Jolly Pumpkin guy claims. “There simply aren’t enough creators from the wing on the roster going forward.” Ummmm ok? As I said, JollyPumpkin seems to think that none of our next 2 recruiting classes will have any creators on the wing, which although is technically possible, it is HIGHLY unlikely.
Another thing - when you have good shooters that are also good passers and know how to use a simple shot fake, you can still move the ball effectively enough to get good shots from deep. Everything doesn’t have to be off of creators or dribble moves. Shot fakes, a couple dribbles and ball movement - that can work too. I will admit it’s not as effective as having three multi-dimensional players on the court at the same time, but it can still be effective.
My opinion is that both of your opinions are in a way, correct. I think you guys are arguing about different things here. ajerome is saying that MattD thinks that you can’t win with “too many just shooters” and MattD thinks that ajerome is arguing that you “don’t need any creators if you have just shooters.” I am pretty sure this is why this argument even exists, simply because of misconceptions on both parts. I can’t help but think this comment is only making things more confusing though…
With one creator, such as Morris in 11 and Burke in 12…let’s just say we didn’t experience as much success as a team. B10 championships don’t do anything for national perception. March defines success, nothing else
That’s exactly what I’m saying - you can’t win with “just shooters” unless you have ball handling creators or legitimate post players in conjunction with the shooters. My opinion is that my opinion is correct
Already admitted we were better the past two seasons, that is obvious. Agree March is more important. Disagree that conference titles are meaningless for national perception.
Point is you seem to be asserting we can’t win with too many ‘just shooters’. My opinion is that your opinion is wrong.