I don’t disagree with your premise, but I disagree with the idea that you can only win the way you say it has to be done. Under Beilein, Michigan has won with few creators and many “just shooters”, they have won with many multi-dimensional creators, either way they have won with outright bad defense and below average rebounding, they have won despite the balance you so desire. I realize you fail to acknowledge conference championships as meaningful and you are not satisfied with being a tourney runner-up or in the elite 8. Your expectations for the program and mine (and many others)-- that’s the real place in which we disagree. And that’s fine - you are entitled to your pessimism (cough, cough, objectivity) - have fun with that.
I didn’t say that is the only way you can win. I simply said that is the way in which “just shooters” are effective. Quite frankly, I don’t care about Beilein’s way, because his way doesn’t win championships, and that has been proven at the college and professional ranks. You can win with no outside shooting as well. UK is the prime example. At the end of the day every dialogue we have seems to come down to this on a macro level - you think we are just fine with a finesse/soft team built on outside shooting and non-athletes and non-creators. I don’t, end if story. It’s not worth the time and effort to debate this topic any longer.
I’ll go beyond the 2011-12 team being an aberration. That 2012-13 team was only as good as it was because Burke was hands down the best player in the country. So sure, you can be elite with one creator on the floor in he’s the Naismith and Wooden winner (and even then, we needed a miracle from that player to get past the Sweet 16).
Wolverheel, what creators are we going to add in 2015 or 2016? Give me a name. We’re fading fast with DTJR, Battle is a longshot (I don’t buy us as co-leaders for a second), Winston is a tossup at best, Dozier and Jaylen Brown…crossing my fingers but certainly wouldn’t say either are likely to happen. One or both of Walton and Chatman may be gone by 2016. There is a dearth of athletic ability going forward and Duncan Robinson doesn’t do anything to solve that problem. I’d rather have taken a flier on a raw, wiry, athletic late riser in April again if we whiffed on Coleman.
If we’re going to be honest about the 2012-13 team, the offense went stagnant for long stretches. People forget about January and February when everyone was complaining that the entire offense was “stand around for 25 seconds and then hope Trey does something.” Again, that can work to an extent when you have the best player in the country, it’s not a long-term recipe for success
We had exactly one creator in 2012-2013: Burke. Stauskas drove occasionally, but only to score. His passing ability didn’t flourish until this past season.
At a minimum, Walton and Chatman will be creators going forward. And I have a feeling Irvin will show the ability to score off the dribble (pull up mid-range jumpers mainly) even if he won’t be a passer. I see Walton playing for at least two more years.
We had exactly one creator in 2012-2013: Burke. Stauskas drove occasionally, but only to score. His passing ability didn't flourish until this past season.At a minimum, Walton and Chatman will be creators going forward. And I have a feeling Irvin will show the ability to score off the dribble (pull up mid-range jumpers mainly) even if he won’t be a passer. I see Walton playing for at least two more years.
Wrong again, Stauskas was lethal off PnR in terms of passing as a freshman
“Michigan scored 1.14 points per shot when Stauskas shot the ball off the ball screen and 1.24 points per possession when he passed the ball off the ball screen”
You can try all you want to refute, you simply need creators in order for “just shooters” to be effective.
If we're going to be honest about the 2012-13 team, the offense went stagnant for long stretches. People forget about January and February when everyone was complaining that the entire offense was "stand around for 25 seconds and then hope Trey does something." Again, that can work to an extent when you have the best player in the country, it's not a long-term recipe for success
Yeah, Burke (and Lebron) are the only guys I can think of that put up nice assist numbers and I still think to myself “this guy is a ballhog”. It’s because they both have the tendency to dribble the air out of the ball for 5-7 dribbles before moving the ball.
If we're going to be honest about the 2012-13 team, the offense went stagnant for long stretches. People forget about January and February when everyone was complaining that the entire offense was "stand around for 25 seconds and then hope Trey does something." Again, that can work to an extent when you have the best player in the country, it's not a long-term recipe for successYeah, Burke (and Lebron) are the only guys I can think of that put up nice assist numbers and I still think to myself “this guy is a ballhog”. It’s because they both have the tendency to dribble the air out of the ball for 5-7 dribbles before moving the ball.
Does he still do that? I just figured he did that while he was here because that was the only way to generate offense. That’s why OSU “locking the rails” worked so well 2 years ago vs last year when Nik, Caris and Derrick just shredded them. You can’t lock 3 different sets of rails.
From what I’ve seen last year, Burke is still very much a ball dominant player, dribbles the air out of the ball and often settles for long 2’s in the 19-21 foot range, and is not successful. Burkedoeswork can provide better insight as to what Trey is doing this year thus far.
Adding to what I posted above, I always maintained that Trey’s success in the NBA will be tied to his ability to effecively shoot the 3 ball because he simply can’t finish over NBA bigs. So far in his career, he hasn’t been able to shoot the 3 proficiently. Judging from his stats this year during the regular season, not much has changed. He’s a high volume shooter that isn’t efficient. Great college player, but I think he’s much better suited for a bench role in the NBA where he can simply chuck away rather than attempting to run an offense. Considering Burks just received a nice contract extension, I think Trey’s days in Utah may be limited. Just my take on it
Adding to what I posted above, I always maintained that Trey's success in the NBA will be tied to his ability to effecively shoot the 3 ball because he simply can't finish over NBA bigs. So far in his career, he hasn't been able to shoot the 3 proficiently. Judging from his stats this year during the regular season, not much has changed. He's a high volume shooter that isn't efficient. Great college player, but I think he's much better suited for a bench role in the NBA where he can simply chuck away rather than attempting to run an offense. Considering Burks just received a nice contract extension, I think Trey's days in Utah may be limited. Just my take on it
Agreed, mid 30% FG% isn’t going to cut it as a starter for a 13 points 5 assists guy. Would love to see him backing up a scoring PG on a contender, someone like Westbrook, Chris Paul, Tony Parker or Mario Chalmers…although maybe Chalmers should be the one headed to the bench.
In a PG dominated league, where such players are lightning quick, Trey’s lack of athleticism is really limiting his ability to be effective. It’s simply a challenge for him to create space on offense, and stay in front of opposing PGs on D. Honestly, the only all NBA caliber PG that isn’t either lightning quick or a pogo stick is Curry. His range is literally out to 30 feet though, in conjunction with a quick release, make him functionally quicker than he actually is. Trey doesn’t have that kind of range, and his release certainly isn’t that quick.
Longtime lurker, didn't really want to get dragged into posting but I can't resist.You guys are setting yourselves up for disappointment. There simply aren’t enough creators from the wing on the roster going forward and Duncan Robinson is not going to remedy that. At best, he’s a redundant offensive talent along the lines of Irvin who has shown no evidence of being a capable enough athlete to defend athletic wings in this league. We needed someone like Jalen Coleman or Prince Ali and we struck out. Now it’s down to MAAR and Chatman who can create off the bounce on the wing. They’d better both pan out and stay healthy. That should be a cause for concern unless you take the “who are we to question Beilein!” approach. All too reminiscent of the shouting down of anyone who dared to point out that Hoke’s highly ranked recruiting classes were filled with redundant talent that was short on fast-twitch playmaking the past few years.
When did Hoke lead Michigan to a National championship game or multiple Big Ten titles? I’ll wait while you tell me the years… I’ll take my chances with Beilein and his staff, some of you are blowing things out of proportion.
“Beilein can do no wrong!!!” Great argument.
It’s not that he can do no wrong… Hell, I have been as hard as on Beilein as anybody over on the scout board and nobody is asking you to be a Beilein d*ckrider. All im saying is you would think after a National title game appearance, 2 big ten titles in the last 3 years(easily could have been a 3rd had Morgan’s tip in gone in), as well as an elite eight appearance just last season that Beilein and his staff would have earned the benefit of the doubt when it comes to recruiting, player development, and putting together a championship quality team. The comparsions between Beilein’s staff and Mark Dantonio’s staff are eerily similar, I don’t see this program slowing down anytime soon.
Longtime lurker, didn't really want to get dragged into posting but I can't resist.You guys are setting yourselves up for disappointment. There simply aren’t enough creators from the wing on the roster going forward and Duncan Robinson is not going to remedy that. At best, he’s a redundant offensive talent along the lines of Irvin who has shown no evidence of being a capable enough athlete to defend athletic wings in this league. We needed someone like Jalen Coleman or Prince Ali and we struck out. Now it’s down to MAAR and Chatman who can create off the bounce on the wing. They’d better both pan out and stay healthy. That should be a cause for concern unless you take the “who are we to question Beilein!” approach. All too reminiscent of the shouting down of anyone who dared to point out that Hoke’s highly ranked recruiting classes were filled with redundant talent that was short on fast-twitch playmaking the past few years.
When did Hoke lead Michigan to a National championship game or multiple Big Ten titles? I’ll wait while you tell me the years… I’ll take my chances with Beilein and his staff, some of you are blowing things out of proportion.
“Beilein can do no wrong!!!” Great argument.
It’s not that he can do no wrong… Hell, I have been as hard as on Beilein as anybody over on the scout board and nobody is asking you to be a Beilein d*ckrider. All im saying is you would think after a National title game appearance, 2 big ten titles in the last 3 years(easily could have been a 3rd had Morgan’s tip in gone in), as well as an elite eight appearance just last season that Beilein and his staff would have earned the benefit of the doubt when it comes to recruiting, player development, and putting together a championship quality team. The comparsions between Beilein’s staff and Mark Dantonio’s staff are eerily similar, I don’t see this program slowing down anytime soon.
Should Georgia Tech fans have just given Paul Hewitt the benefit of the doubt after their national title game appearance with Jarrett Jack? Should UW have put blind faith in Lorenzo Romar after he had them tasting success with Spencer Hawes and Nate Robinson? Should Mike Davis have been unquestioned after 2001-02 at Indiana?
We’ve had a few good years, teams rise and fall all the time. Too many around here are starting from the premise “UM is good at basketball now” and molding the abilities of the players in their minds to fit that narrative instead of honestly looking at the talent and skillsets of the players on the roster. I hope the Beilein/Dantonio analogy holds, but as coaches get older, they also tend to settle in recruiting because they don’t have the energy to go compete on the recruiting trail anymore (see Lloyd Carr and Joe Paterno). It’s certainly possible that success has made Beilein comfortable, he’d be far from the first to fall victim to his own success. When I look at taking Duncan Robinson instead of fighting for Jalen Coleman or finding another athletic wing, that’s the first thing I think. I look at the roster in the next few years and I see a lack of penetrators. Beilein must address this or we will be a bubble team going forward.
Longtime lurker, didn't really want to get dragged into posting but I can't resist.You guys are setting yourselves up for disappointment. There simply aren’t enough creators from the wing on the roster going forward and Duncan Robinson is not going to remedy that. At best, he’s a redundant offensive talent along the lines of Irvin who has shown no evidence of being a capable enough athlete to defend athletic wings in this league. We needed someone like Jalen Coleman or Prince Ali and we struck out. Now it’s down to MAAR and Chatman who can create off the bounce on the wing. They’d better both pan out and stay healthy. That should be a cause for concern unless you take the “who are we to question Beilein!” approach. All too reminiscent of the shouting down of anyone who dared to point out that Hoke’s highly ranked recruiting classes were filled with redundant talent that was short on fast-twitch playmaking the past few years.
When did Hoke lead Michigan to a National championship game or multiple Big Ten titles? I’ll wait while you tell me the years… I’ll take my chances with Beilein and his staff, some of you are blowing things out of proportion.
“Beilein can do no wrong!!!” Great argument.
It’s not that he can do no wrong… Hell, I have been as hard as on Beilein as anybody over on the scout board and nobody is asking you to be a Beilein d*ckrider. All im saying is you would think after a National title game appearance, 2 big ten titles in the last 3 years(easily could have been a 3rd had Morgan’s tip in gone in), as well as an elite eight appearance just last season that Beilein and his staff would have earned the benefit of the doubt when it comes to recruiting, player development, and putting together a championship quality team. The comparsions between Beilein’s staff and Mark Dantonio’s staff are eerily similar, I don’t see this program slowing down anytime soon.
Should Georgia Tech fans have just given Paul Hewitt the benefit of the doubt after their national title game appearance with Jarrett Jack? Should UW have put blind faith in Lorenzo Romar after he had them tasting success with Spencer Hawes and Nate Robinson? Should Mike Davis have been unquestioned after 2001-02 at Indiana?
We’ve had a few good years, teams rise and fall all the time. Too many around here are starting from the premise “UM is good at basketball now” and molding the abilities of the players in their minds to fit that narrative instead of honestly looking at the talent and skillsets of the players on the roster. I hope the Beilein/Dantonio analogy holds, but as coaches get older, they also tend to settle in recruiting because they don’t have the energy to go compete on the recruiting trail anymore (see Lloyd Carr and Joe Paterno). It’s certainly possible that success has made Beilein comfortable, he’d be far from the first to fall victim to his own success. When I look at taking Duncan Robinson instead of fighting for Jalen Coleman or finding another athletic wing, that’s the first thing I think. I look at the roster in the next few years and I see a lack of penetrators. Beilein must address this or we will be a bubble team going forward.
If you think that Beilein and/or his staff has let up in recruiting or any other way, you haven’t really been following Michigan basketball in recent years.
Longtime lurker, didn't really want to get dragged into posting but I can't resist.You guys are setting yourselves up for disappointment. There simply aren’t enough creators from the wing on the roster going forward and Duncan Robinson is not going to remedy that. At best, he’s a redundant offensive talent along the lines of Irvin who has shown no evidence of being a capable enough athlete to defend athletic wings in this league. We needed someone like Jalen Coleman or Prince Ali and we struck out. Now it’s down to MAAR and Chatman who can create off the bounce on the wing. They’d better both pan out and stay healthy. That should be a cause for concern unless you take the “who are we to question Beilein!” approach. All too reminiscent of the shouting down of anyone who dared to point out that Hoke’s highly ranked recruiting classes were filled with redundant talent that was short on fast-twitch playmaking the past few years.
When did Hoke lead Michigan to a National championship game or multiple Big Ten titles? I’ll wait while you tell me the years… I’ll take my chances with Beilein and his staff, some of you are blowing things out of proportion.
“Beilein can do no wrong!!!” Great argument.
It’s not that he can do no wrong… Hell, I have been as hard as on Beilein as anybody over on the scout board and nobody is asking you to be a Beilein d*ckrider. All im saying is you would think after a National title game appearance, 2 big ten titles in the last 3 years(easily could have been a 3rd had Morgan’s tip in gone in), as well as an elite eight appearance just last season that Beilein and his staff would have earned the benefit of the doubt when it comes to recruiting, player development, and putting together a championship quality team. The comparsions between Beilein’s staff and Mark Dantonio’s staff are eerily similar, I don’t see this program slowing down anytime soon.
Should Georgia Tech fans have just given Paul Hewitt the benefit of the doubt after their national title game appearance with Jarrett Jack? Should UW have put blind faith in Lorenzo Romar after he had them tasting success with Spencer Hawes and Nate Robinson? Should Mike Davis have been unquestioned after 2001-02 at Indiana?
We’ve had a few good years, teams rise and fall all the time. Too many around here are starting from the premise “UM is good at basketball now” and molding the abilities of the players in their minds to fit that narrative instead of honestly looking at the talent and skillsets of the players on the roster. I hope the Beilein/Dantonio analogy holds, but as coaches get older, they also tend to settle in recruiting because they don’t have the energy to go compete on the recruiting trail anymore (see Lloyd Carr and Joe Paterno). It’s certainly possible that success has made Beilein comfortable, he’d be far from the first to fall victim to his own success. When I look at taking Duncan Robinson instead of fighting for Jalen Coleman or finding another athletic wing, that’s the first thing I think. I look at the roster in the next few years and I see a lack of penetrators. Beilein must address this or we will be a bubble team going forward.
If you think that Beilein and/or his staff has let up in recruiting or any other way, you haven’t really been following Michigan basketball in recent years.
Didn’t say they have, I said Duncan Robinson is one data point that would suggest that. If a slew of others follow, then that holds more merit than the Dantonio analogy.
Longtime lurker, didn't really want to get dragged into posting but I can't resist.You guys are setting yourselves up for disappointment. There simply aren’t enough creators from the wing on the roster going forward and Duncan Robinson is not going to remedy that. At best, he’s a redundant offensive talent along the lines of Irvin who has shown no evidence of being a capable enough athlete to defend athletic wings in this league. We needed someone like Jalen Coleman or Prince Ali and we struck out. Now it’s down to MAAR and Chatman who can create off the bounce on the wing. They’d better both pan out and stay healthy. That should be a cause for concern unless you take the “who are we to question Beilein!” approach. All too reminiscent of the shouting down of anyone who dared to point out that Hoke’s highly ranked recruiting classes were filled with redundant talent that was short on fast-twitch playmaking the past few years.
When did Hoke lead Michigan to a National championship game or multiple Big Ten titles? I’ll wait while you tell me the years… I’ll take my chances with Beilein and his staff, some of you are blowing things out of proportion.
“Beilein can do no wrong!!!” Great argument.
It’s not that he can do no wrong… Hell, I have been as hard as on Beilein as anybody over on the scout board and nobody is asking you to be a Beilein d*ckrider. All im saying is you would think after a National title game appearance, 2 big ten titles in the last 3 years(easily could have been a 3rd had Morgan’s tip in gone in), as well as an elite eight appearance just last season that Beilein and his staff would have earned the benefit of the doubt when it comes to recruiting, player development, and putting together a championship quality team. The comparsions between Beilein’s staff and Mark Dantonio’s staff are eerily similar, I don’t see this program slowing down anytime soon.
Should Georgia Tech fans have just given Paul Hewitt the benefit of the doubt after their national title game appearance with Jarrett Jack? Should UW have put blind faith in Lorenzo Romar after he had them tasting success with Spencer Hawes and Nate Robinson? Should Mike Davis have been unquestioned after 2001-02 at Indiana?
We’ve had a few good years, teams rise and fall all the time. Too many around here are starting from the premise “UM is good at basketball now” and molding the abilities of the players in their minds to fit that narrative instead of honestly looking at the talent and skillsets of the players on the roster. I hope the Beilein/Dantonio analogy holds, but as coaches get older, they also tend to settle in recruiting because they don’t have the energy to go compete on the recruiting trail anymore (see Lloyd Carr and Joe Paterno). It’s certainly possible that success has made Beilein comfortable, he’d be far from the first to fall victim to his own success. When I look at taking Duncan Robinson instead of fighting for Jalen Coleman or finding another athletic wing, that’s the first thing I think. I look at the roster in the next few years and I see a lack of penetrators. Beilein must address this or we will be a bubble team going forward.
If you think that Beilein and/or his staff has let up in recruiting or any other way, you haven’t really been following Michigan basketball in recent years.
Didn’t say they have, I said Duncan Robinson is one data point that would suggest that. If a slew of others follow, then that holds more merit than the Dantonio analogy.
You suggested that Beilein’s slowing down in his “old age.” Nonsense. He flies thousands of miles to watch recruits work out. He does his due diligence. He watches hours of video on prospects. He takes full advantage of the open periods during AAU ball. Hev evaluates a mind boggling number of players. Taking Robinson and dropping Coleman was a choice, not an indication that he’s tiring and doesn’t want to “fight.” Maybe you don’t like that choice, but they put a ton of time and effort into that kid and got precious little positive feedback. His interest faded long ago, and his last minute, too late attempt to schedule a visit did not change that. Your comparison of Beilein to MikeDavis and Paul Hewitt is absurd. Do you believe that those guys are on the same level as coaches with Beilein? Beilein’s peers and college hoops analysts rank him as one of the finest coaches in college basketball. You can’t say that about Davis or Hewitt.
Beilein has made mistakes. Max was a reach and has never contributed much on the court. Beilein needed front court depth and took Max. Christian and Blake were others who could not play at this level.(Beilein couldn’t be choosy in the first couple of years.) But Beilein has had many more successes than misses on guys with little fanfare. Novak, Douglass, Morgan, Caris, Spike, THJ, etc.
Coach A:
Career Record - 273 wins/180 losses/60.3%
Conference Record - 145 wins/83 losses/63.6%
Tourney Appearances - 6 - gets to tourney 42.8% of time
Coach B:
Career Record - 443 wins/269 losses/62.2%
Conference Record - 210 wins/146 losses/59%
Tourney Appearances - 9 - gets to tourney 39.1% of time
Coach C:
Career Record - 311 wins/230 losses/57.5%
Conference Record - 138 wins/144 losses/48.9%
Tourney Appearances - 6 - gets to tourney 35.3% of time
Taking emotion and bias out of it, looking at a blind resume, I’d say it isn’t all that absurd.
Coach A:Career Record - 273 wins/180 losses/60.3%
Conference Record - 145 wins/83 losses/63.6%
Tourney Appearances - 6 - gets to tourney 42.8% of timeCoach B:
Career Record - 443 wins/269 losses/62.2%
Conference Record - 210 wins/146 losses/59%
Tourney Appearances - 9 - gets to tourney 39.1% of timeCoach C:
Career Record - 311 wins/230 losses/57.5%
Conference Record - 138 wins/144 losses/48.9%
Tourney Appearances - 6 - gets to tourney 35.3% of timeTaking emotion and bias out of it, looking at a blind resume, I’d say it isn’t all that absurd.
That analysis is truly blind. Very superficial. Does it matter where they coached over the course of their careers? Or the state of the programs when they arrived? Would you trade Beilein for either one of those guys?
Had a chance to check out Trey last night vs the LAC on League Pass. I have to say, Trey looked pretty bad out there…really struggled badly. I know it’s only his second year in the league, but I just don’t think he’s PG material in the NBA…at least not starter material. He struggles with decision making and makes silly TOs. He’s never going to be a good defender at that level due to his lack of size and lateral movement. Last night I wasn’t critiquing his D, because how many people in the world can stay in front of Chris Paul? But offensively, he was just downright awful. He is visibly frustrated, got into a few shouting matches with his teammates on the court during the game. Honestly, if Trey isn’t hitting the 3 ball, he’s almost useless on the court as it relates to the NBA…harsh, but I think true.