No one is advocating that Beilein didn’t like other wing players more, either. He was advocating that even if Beilein misses out on his top guys, still get guys to fit his system.
You saying that “you are burying your head if you think Beilein didn’t prioritize other wing players more” is the definition of a strawman.
All I know is I’ve learned a tremendous amount about strawman arguments through this thread. In the past I would have just assumed it was a Wizard of Oz reference…
You definitely know it’s the offseason when we are debating strawman and a few like Ben are continuously freaking out at the impending demise of the program. Some of you guys need the season to start soon.
As for me, I am not worried in the least and if Beilein likes a player, I’ll roll with it. He has earned that trust. I hope Robinson gets and accepts an offer on Monday.
Exactly. I’ve never said Duncan Robinson (or Levert, or Hardaway) was our first choice. What I meant is that we are pretty good at spotting under-the-radar guys who turn into really good players under the staff’s guidance, after we don’t get our Plan A guys.
Hardaway was at least a Plan C behind Casey Prather and Trey Ziegler. Levert was a late spring pick up. Would we have rather closed out that class with Gary Harris? No doubt.
Certainly, we have missed on a lot of Plan A guys over the years. Guys like Prather, Ziegler, Ray McCallum (though he probably never gave us strong consideration), Nate Lubick, the Plumlee brothers (all three), and lately Booker, Bates-Diop, Blueitt (though I assume we could have gotten back into it had we wanted to), and Blackmon.
End of the world? Not in my view.
When I say people want us to emulate Kentucky, what I mean is that every time we take a guy who isn’t a consensus top 100 player (or heck, top 40), people seem to get all freaked out.
A few points:
We still have a LOT of top 100 players on the roster: Irvin, Walton, Chatman, Donnal, Wilson. That’s hardly bad recruiting.
Of the “under the radar,” outside-the-top-100 guys we have signed over the past five years, many of them have turned into legitimate college stars: Burke, Hardaway, and Levert come immediately to mind. And of the rest, plenty have become important contributors, even if they are not stars: Morgan, Stu Douglas, Novak, Spike, and Horford.
In short, there is reason to believe that when we offer a player, even if that guy isn’t at the top of our priority list, we can still develop that guy into a contributor, and even sometimes into a star and future NBA talent. Among Dawkins, MAAR and Doyle, I’m willing to bet one of those guys is a future NBA player, and I’m also willing to bet Chatman and Wilson are, too. So if three guys from this entering class wind up in the NBA, even though we missed all our top targets except Chatman, that’s pretty darn good.
Finally, one more point: the more five stars you land, the more you’ll be replacing them immediately. No one wants to turn down talent, of course. But I’d predict a guy like Thornton, for example, is at least a 50/50 bet to turn pro after one year. We have a great offense, and players flourish in our system. That’s a good thing, of course, but it has also led to seven early entries over the past four years (Manny, Darius, Trey, Tim, Nik, Mitch, and Glenn). It’s not always a bad thing to land guys that take three years (like Tim and Caris) to develop into NBA draft picks, as opposed to one year or two. In that same vein, that’s why all things considered, getting Seth Towns over TJ Leaf may not be a bad thing if it happens. I’m not saying I wouldn’t take Leaf - I’d love to get him. I’m just saying that some of these Plan B types have worked out quite well for us.
just curious - why is it that everyone assumes that lower end recruits without athleticism are "intelligent" and locker room "leaders" After seeing 5 minutes of highlights and no other information? Im pretty baffled by those assertions whenever i see it. Can someone please enlighten me?
It’s because he’s white, let’s be honest here.
just curious - why is it that everyone assumes that lower end recruits without athleticism are "intelligent" and locker room "leaders" After seeing 5 minutes of highlights and no other information? Im pretty baffled by those assertions whenever i see it. Can someone please enlighten me?It’s because he’s white, let’s be honest here.
You said it
I believe that getting a lesser known player like Robinson, instead of a 4 or 5 star 2015 player, will NOT bring upon us the demise of Michigan basketball, as Ben seems to think. With that being said, if you had the choice between Coleman and Robinson, how many of you guys would choose Robinson. I’m guessing not very many. Fortunately for us, it looks like we will have multiple scholarships for 2015, so even though you guys seem to think Coleman is slipping away, his Crystal Ball prediction is still 93% Michigan, and obviously that doesn’t tell us who he is going to commit to, but it still mean that most people believe that we have the upper hand. A 2015 class of Coleman, plus Robinson as a transfer, would be fine with me. No one thinks he’s going to be great, but programs NEED consistent role players to survive.
Duncan Robinson would be 8th player in one class. That is not healthy for a program.
I know Hatch situation may change that. That still is 7, and I don’t see anyone redshirting…
We have 6 at this point from the 2014 class. MAAR, Dawkins, Chatman, Doyle, Hatch and Wilson. Where are you getting 7?
Edit: Unless you are including Donnal?
Yes- have to now include Donnal…
That’s a lot. Soon to be 8?
The sign of a healthy program. B1G championships, Sweet 16 participation or better, quality players and coaches with high character traits, fans in seats for games and people supporting the team on boards.
Results in March and April speak louder than words in August.
Go Blue!
I guess I’ll keep dreaming because you felt the same way about LeVert and Spike.
I don’t know Robinsons game enough to judge, but I LOVE Dawkins. I love that our lineup 1 through 4 is nothing but top 30 players (Donnal was in the top 80 range/LeVert a potential lottery pick)
I love that we have a good shot at Dozier ( top 20 player IMO).
And I love that our '16 class could be phenomenal, regardless that Matt D says we should stop recruiting Battle because we have no shot (other feel much differently), people who know nothing say Thorton is a lock to UK, and Leaf is all IU.
Un-believe-able
Chill folks
Beilein built this out of Manny, Peedi, Novak and Darius. We have twice the talent now, a final 4 and Chip game under our belts.
The future is good an I assure you we will compete nationally.
I guess I'll keep dreaming because you felt the same way about LeVert and Spike.I don’t know Robinsons game enough to judge, but I LOVE Dawkins. I love that our lineup 1 through 4 is nothing but top 30 players (Donnal was in the top 80 range/LeVert a potential lottery pick)
I love that we have a good shot at Dozier ( top 20 player IMO).
And I love that our '16 class could be phenomenal, regardless that Matt D says we should stop recruiting Battle because we have no shot (other feel much differently), people who know nothing say Thorton is a lock to UK, and Leaf is all IU.
Un-believe-able
Chill folksBeilein built this out of Manny, Peedi, Novak and Darius. We have twice the talent now, a final 4 and Chip game under our belts.
The future is good an I assure you we will compete nationally.
The problem with the word could…is the term is applicable to literally any scenario in any year. Our 2014 class could’ve been phenomenal, our 2015 class could’ve been phenomenal, and our 2016 could be phenomenal…what’s your point? We make a habit out of leading early and fading late in recent years. Hopefully that changes
When the term could turns into is…that’s when it matters
It’s not really unbelievable when you put it into proper view…when you fail to obtain upper tier talent time and time again…at some point it will catch up to you. Now I’m on record as saying we have enough talent to bridge the gap from now until 2016, but if we fail to lock up a good class from a talent perspective in 2016, I do think you’ll see a decrease in the on court production.
Btw... Listen to Doziers dad here... Nothing huge but everyone has even shot..
This was posted in the 2015 guard/wing recruiting thread. Listened to it. As usual, people can interpret denying UNC is the leader as “UNC is the leader” or “they really aren’t the leader.” I personally think it’s better to wait and see how Dozier’s visit goes, as that’s still the best way to make up ground compared to other schools.
Regardless of that report, SC is the favorite, not UNC.
Might want to be a little cautiously optimistic about continuing to compete at a National level. Remember we basically only have 4 guys on the roster that have played college ball and 2 of them at the same position. Albrecht, Walton, Irvin, Levert.
Thanks for the advice. Under consideration.
“Your opinion is awaiting consideration.” Sorry.
Thanks for the advice. Under consideration.
Not really my battle…but I’m goint to chime in anyway because I find your habit of doing this to be problematic.
You consistently have sarcastic comments in response to subtle suggestions from posters that you don’t agree with - in this case Ben suggested that we “might want to be cautiously optimistic” about competing, but yet you fail to have the same type of response when Wolverine3 instructs us to “chill” and can “assure” we will compete nationally. All of this points to this - any suggestion/instruction from another poster that lends upport to the notion that UM is/will do “good”, whether it be now or future is alright by you which is evidenced by your lack of response to the same, whereas any suggestion/instruction to the contrary warrants your sarcasm - not a good thing.
All this to say - this type of commentary is what commences arguments and personal attacks…just something you may want to consider.