Big Ten Discussion

kris dunn
buddy hield
taurean prince
denzel valentine
frank kaminsky
doug mcdermott

This is the list of upperclassmen drafted in the lottery in the past 4 drafts. Huerter better be a NPOY candidate if he comes back.


2013 (a very weak draft) had a couple more than usual. But still, two NPOY candidates and CJ McCollum who was averaging 25+ ppg at a small school and beat Duke.

Victor Oladipo
CJ McCollum
Kelly Olynyk

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I’ve cone to the conclusion MSU will play Loyer and Winston a lot together the next two years, and it will be a good thing for MSU. number one reason being Winston is better served checking 2’s. There is some late season precedent for this case.
In regular season finale Brad Davison lit up MSU for 30. In the Big Ten tournament Izzo opted for Langford or McQuaid to check Davison. Placing Winston on Pritzl
At the end of Michigan vs MSU in Big Ten tournament game Izzo put Langford on Simpson and moved Winston onto Duncan Robinson
Now add Loyer to MSU, a phenomenal shooter who is going to play, it makes sense to continue with Winston at the 2 for extended minutes. Langford might even be better at the 3.
I should add I’m a big fan of Loyer’s offensive game and quick jumper. He’s going to be good.

Winston guarding 2s may have worked against Pritzl but if Winston is gonna check Jordan Poole then I can’t wait.


Winston has a better shot at guarding Poole than he does Simpson. Physically he can’t stay in front of Simpson. Because Poole vs Winston is a mismatch doesn’t preclude it from being MSU’s best option.

I don’t think one game like that sets any kind of precedent, especially against a guy like Pritzl. The issues he faces with a lack of quickness will just be exchanged for a lack of height. Remember Stauskas abusing Appling in 2014 by simply realizing he could shoot over him with little space?

I’m also not sure your conclusion that he’d be better on Poole is correct. Poole also has an incredibly quick first step, but he is far more aggressive than Simpson and has a legit three point shot so Winston can’t sag.

The entire notion that this will be helpful to MSU’s defense is predicated on Loyer being better than Winston defending PG’s OR Winston being better than McQuaid at guarding 2’s. I don’t think either of those things are going to be true.


Never said MSU’s defense will be better with Loyer and Winston on the floor together. I would argue the opposite. Please read before responding. I do think there is a good chance MSU’s team will be better with Winston and Loyer sharing the court together. Time will tell.

No need for random hostility, this is a sports message board lol.

Regardless, you said it would be good for MSU then proceeded to discuss defense, which will be almost laughably atrocious if Ward leaves and Loyer, Winston, McQuaid, and Langford get major minutes together. I cannot see any offensive boost overcoming how bad that lineup would be defensively.

Not sure why you think I’m being hostile? I enjoy your input.

Zero need for this on a sports forum.

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Winston has no shot at guarding anybody. The best scenario, from Izzo’s perspective, is to put Winston on the player least likely to put big points up against MSU.

I am assuming Winston is worse than Loyer defensively. I am not even sure if that is a safe assumption. Izzo is in trouble on the defensive end if Winston/Loyer are the go-to-duo.

Big trouble.


Yeah, with Loyer it’s still a question mark until he gets into a college strength program, but the current thoughts on his defense are pretty similar to Winston, but shorter and weaker. So ummm, big trouble could be correct.

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I disagree that Winston would have a better chance guarding Poole than Simpson. One guy is pretty much a non-threat offensively barring major improvements. Yes Simpson is quick as hell and a bulldog but he wasn’t even looking for his own offense many games this season other than catch and shoot threes (that he missed many of) and transition opportunities. Simpson took those matchups personally and won them clearly but I still think he’s the one guy you could “hide” a poor defender on and just hope he misses shots.

Poole would be able to shoot over any 6’0” guard, let alone two guys as slow laterally as Winston and Loyer. Poole didn’t struggle to get to the rim when he was in attack-mode as a freshman and I’d expect him to grow in that area as he gets a higher volume of possessions as a primary ball handler.


I feel Winston often doesn’t give much effort, this combined with his limitations leads to some ugly defense.

Michigan has had a lot of success with poor defensive teams, as we are all well aware.

I am interested to see Loyer and Winston on the court together to see how the dynamic plays out. To see how Izzo works them together. I will be watching intently. I’ll be surprised if it isn’t part of MSU’s rotation. Certainly appears an upgrade to playing Winston and Nairn together

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I definitely agree that those two might be a helluva dynamic and fun to watch offensive duo.

Are you guys implying that Loyer will be some kind of defensive upgrade at PG over what MSU had last year?

I am not. I think Winston/Loyer would be a significant downgrade from an already bad perimeter defense. Winston/Loyer will be an upgrade offensively (but it might take some time). Regardless, I think the downgrade in perimeter defense will be felt much more next year because MSU will lack the awesome rim protection they had. Winston basically unintentionally funneled the guy he was guarding into a shot-block. Next year Winston (and presumably Loyer) will be funneling opposing offensive players into layups and dunks.


This is somewhat true, tempered by the fact that he can at least play off Simpson a little without worrying about him raining threes.

I’d say either guy is a tough cover for Winston. And Loyer is slower than Winston, right? He’ll never stay in front of Simpson either.

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That’s what the improvement thing seems to be predicated on, which is a very weak assumption in my opinion.

Am I right in remembering that when DeJulius went off for 40+ against Clarkston they didn’t try to have Loyer guard him? If Winston can’t cover a shorter player that he can sag off on, I don’t like his chances against Poole. I’m looking forward to seeing them on the floor together. Should be fun to watch.

Maybe they will spend extra time this summer working on their floor slap. :wink: