Seems even worse. When the play is still live, grabbing the shirt is less egregious than grabbing someone’s jersey after a dead ball.
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Yeah, I get that viewpoint. It’s all about definitions of types of fouls and what the crew is and is not allowed to assess using replay.
I’m confused. Wasn’t the ball dead (the OSU bump on X already occurred) when X grabbed the jersey? And wasn’t the play alive (the ball is on the rim), when it occurred in the MSU - Illinois game? Shouldn’t it be the other way around? If the latter isn’t true, then the play was definitely dead for both instances.
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In our game, the ball remained live after X was fouled, as the shot was still in the air when X grabbed Young’s jersey. That’s why a flagrant 1 foul was possible. I believe I explained that pretty well in the recap thread, but maybe not; it can be confusing. In last night’s game, the ball was dead as soon as the foul was whistled, as it was a non-shooting foul.
Why would it possibly mater whether the ball was live or not? Once there is a foul called, the play is over in each case save for whether the ball falls into the basket or not. Where in the rules does it say a flagrant foul for a jersey grab can be called after a shooting foul, but not after a non-shooting foul?
I will repeat what I said the night of the OSU game–I have never seen, and will never see again, a flagrant foul called for grabbing a jersey in that situation. In fact, if flagrant fouls are the correct call for jersey grabs, Wisconsin would always be forced to play walk-ons after the first 10 minutes of the first half. The only explanation for a flagrant in that spot is a dangerous play–that’s what Carstenson tried to insinuate when he said that X took Young to the ground, except that it was flatly untrue, and the replay confirmed that. The reason the call wasn’t made last night was not because the situations differed–it was because the call in the Michigan-OSU game was preposterous, and wasn’t going to be made again.
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Rule 6 covers live and dead ball situations. 6.5.1 specifies that the ball becomes dead when the whistle sounds. However, 6.6.2 provides an exception for a situation where the ball does not become dead when a shooter is fouled. In that case, the ball remaines live until the shot ends. So no, a play is not necessarily “over” when a foul occurs.
Live vs. dead ball is crucial because a flagrant 1 foul can only occur while the ball is live. (Rule 4.15 covers foul definitions). A flagrant 1 is a type of personal foul, and personal fouls can only occur during a live ball. So, this was possible in our game since the ball was live when X grabbed Young’s shirt, while it was not possible last night, because the ball was already dead when the shirt grab occurred. So, the reason the call wasn’t made last night actually was because the two situations are different.
It’s also important to understand the definition of a flagrant 1 foul. “Dangerous” is not a criteria. A foul can be deemed a flagrant 1 if the contact is “excessive in nature and/or unnecessary”.
The rulebook is a free download at the NCAA site.
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Wow, amazed that there was no tear! Glad for him, hope it heals quickly
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I’ll be glad when Izzo finally retires. I hate his angry, yelling coaching style but it somehow works. Every time it seems like an MSU season is going off the rails, they somehow get that key win to turn it around.
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So is it fair game for players to grab opponents jerseys after dead balls with no reprocussions since flagrant 1s only occur during live ball action? If X did the same exact thing, but the ball was dead then it would be nothing? Logic makes zero sense, especially considering the spirit of the rules regarding flagrant fouls. I’m not sure what live vs dead has to do with anything.
A similar play that occurs during a dead ball period could be called a technical foul.
I explained several times why live vs. dead ball matters. I guess I’m explaining it poorly. I’ll try once more. A flagrant 1 foul can only occur during a live ball period. A flagrant 1 foul can not occur during a dead ball period.
I understand that’s the rule, but maybe that needs to be revisited because that’s the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard. It has zero logic behind it.
There’s no way any ref is calling a technical for a player pulling a jersey during a dead ball unless it escalates into trash talking or some sort of skirmish. So then it penalizes something that happens during a live ball way more severely than a dead ball.
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You are very knowledgable about refereeing. I was wondering if you could answer a question I have had for a while about the play in the first Michigan-Illinois game when Kofi Cockburn smashed the ref in the head on accident. I just want to know why that was not a technical foul. I totally understand that it was a complete accident, but if he had accidentally hit a player in the head while doing the same celebration it almost certainly would have been called a technical, I believe.
Maybe I do not even know exactly what a technical foul is. Are they completely subjective and the refs can call them for whatever they feel is egregious behavior? It just seems to me like knocking out a ref while the play is dead, even if it is unintentional, is something that should be called a technical foul.
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There are many rules that make far from perfect sense. No question about that.
There are several types of technical fouls, and they’re covered in rule 4.15.3. There are specific definitions, but there is a lot of leeway for officials when deciding what does or does not warrant a technical. Generally, unsportsmanlike behaviour is what can lead to a technical. In the case of that Kofi play, the fact that it was purely accidental supports the decision the crew made.
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Rutgers is tough. Really tough.
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OSU -5.5 … never a doubt! 
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B1G Kenpom rankings right now:
- MSU
- Maryland
- Penn St.
- Ohio St.
- Iowa
- Purdue
- Michigan (21- the forum edits my post and I can’t change it)
- Illinois
- Minnesota
- Wisconsin
- Rutgers (33- the forum edits my post and I can’t change it)
- Indiana
- Northwestern
- Nebraska
Pretty incredible how there are pretty distinct clustered groups right now.
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We really need to pass IU and Minny in the next few weeks. Don’t want to have to play Wednesday night in the BTT.
Winning against Indiana puts Michigan firmly ahead of three teams, plus one of Ohio State or Purdue since they play each other, and possibly Minnesota if they fall to Iowa at home. That would be five wins in the last six as well – so hopefully that stretch and finally breaking out of the basement (relatively speaking) and seeing daylight could be helpful ahead of the home stretch of the season.