Prime LeBron takes them to the finals tho. Big difference.
Yes he needs other good players just like everyone does
Every title Lebron has won he’s had a player better than Jamal Murray on his team
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Jokic does all his work inside but manages to get an atrocious whistle. Pretty crazy
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Guys, I have little to no interest in reading this thread so can you please try to keep it civil and on topic about actual basketball and not go completely off the rails!
Thanks!
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Also not sure I’d classify Jokic as a true big. He brings the ball down the court, he’s one of the best passers and smartest players in nba history, and he’s got more triple doubles than any player in nba history besides Big O, Russ and Magic (until next year).
If Denver wins it all this year and Jokic wins his third mvp he really needs to start being discussed as a top 10-15 player of all time. Certainly the best foreign born player ever
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Delineating Gianni’s and Jokic def makes no sense. Both do the same stuff on ball Jokic just does it slow. Giannis “needed” Middleton to be the late closer in his title run. Jokic is just far and away better on offense than Giannis too
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He’s a true big, just with a massive scoop of extra. He’s an old school big in a ton of ways (drop coverage, great rebounder, etc). The passing obviously is his unicorn school.
I think he probably is already a top 25 player if he retired this morning? But I try not to do ring discourse, so I acknowledge that people would disagree with that
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I also think he’s a top 25 player ever already….and his peak has been higher than many players in the top 25. Just about sustaining success and adding to legacy at this point for him
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My main problem with the Wolves is that I think their offense is genuinely bad, and frequently just becomes “Save us, Ant!” and the Nuggets will punish them for that in ways the Suns were not capable. It’s wild to me that the team starting 2 7-footers, one of whom is fully functional Rudy Gobert, stinks at offensive rebounding.
On your other point, the number of title teams with fewer than 3 HOF players is genuinely small: Probably '23 Nuggets and '21 Bucks, '20 Lakers recently, but other than that it’s like…the '04 Pistons?
Virtually none other that '04 Pistons teams probably had less than 2 HOF’ers?
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Yeah I don’t want to do a Bill Simmons ranking thing but I think I’ve mentally had KG in the teens, and I think Jokic is probably around there.
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I didn’t mean to undersell Jokic, he is going to go down as one of the best to ever do it. It’s just when push comes to shove in the playoffs for end of game situations you are going to lean on your perimeter creators (Murray) to take you to the finish line. Obviously Murray got the final shot on two games this series. Jokic does stuff at the perimeter but he isn’t someone you give the ball to outside and tell him to just go.
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Thought the Lakers played well defensively. Jokic is just about impossible to guard but those early doubles and quick rotations worked for the most part down the stretch.
I think he’s a top 15 at minimum. His advanced numbers reflects it and his uniqueness is why he’ll get there. He doesn’t have a true all-star on the team. Jamal Murray in the regular season isn’t the same player as Jamal Murray in the playoff. When you look at the roster, they compliment well with Joker on the court. You don’t need a true PG because Joker is the point center and they run through him.
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Yeah I mean, I’m not going to write down a list right or something but I don’t disagree in principle.
That makes the ending of games more exciting…think college should go to that rule.
Yeah I feel like that’s a universally loved rule. Women’s cbb has it
Creates excitement but completely changing how the game is played to do so is dumb
I like when sports are fun.
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Exactly Murray never won a national title but JCL did.
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I feel you, but the thing is that Murray isn’t creating these shots out of nowhere. Every big shot like that they’re going to the Murray/Jokic 2 man game, which is essentially unstoppable. Jokic gravity is helping Murray even on these late game shots. It’s not like they’re just going ISO Murray and letting him cook
so yes he needs a guard that can do that! but every non-prime Lebron player needs other guys to do things sometimes! And even 2 of Lebron’s championships, the famous big shots were made by not Lebron.
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