2016 Point Guard Recruiting (Xavier Simpson)

Dylan - you think the staff would give Hyron Edwards another look if things don't go according to plan with the 16 recruits? The kid can't shoot, but he sure can penetrate. I'm thinking package deal with Jefferson might not be such a bad idea. Would rather have Edwards than be stuck with nothing at all come 17

Timing-wise, how could they? I have seen nothing to indicate Winston, Langford, Battle, etc. are deciding before the '15 spring signing period.

Plus, it appears that Edwards has legit offers from Purdue and IU. I’m not sure that we could swoop in in the 11th hour and land him.

What do you mean ‘how could they’ - very easily, offer Edwards a scholarship if the staff doesn’t feel confident in how things are going with the 16 class. They did it with Jalen Coleman. Probably not the course of action the staff will take, but it is an option if they are not confident on the 16 class come April

Dylan - you think the staff would give Hyron Edwards another look if things don't go according to plan with the 16 recruits? The kid can't shoot, but he sure can penetrate. I'm thinking package deal with Jefferson might not be such a bad idea. Would rather have Edwards than be stuck with nothing at all come 17

Timing-wise, how could they? I have seen nothing to indicate Winston, Langford, Battle, etc. are deciding before the '15 spring signing period.

Plus, it appears that Edwards has legit offers from Purdue and IU. I’m not sure that we could swoop in in the 11th hour and land him.

What do you mean ‘how could they’ - very easily, offer Edwards a scholarship if the staff doesn’t feel confident in how things are going with the 16 class. They did it with Jalen Coleman. Probably not the course of action the staff will take, but it is an option if they are not confident on the 16 class come April

Thank you for explaining how scholarship offers work. Super enlightening. I was questioning how they could realistically get back in the race for Edwards after seemingly not recruiting him for so long. Spring signing period is coming up in April. He’s an Indiana kid being recruited by Purdue and IU. Plus, you said yourself that JB is “Topeka” and his car equivalent is a “civic.” Seems unlikely that such a bland coach would be able to swoop in at the last minute and land a recruit with those types of offers, no?

Seems pretty clear to me that we believe Thornton is a one-and-done player, and we have been prioritizing Winston for the past few months. Now, of course, we need to GET Winston. But if we do, I think the strategy is sound for two reasons: (1) I'm not convinced we'll have a good enough roster to win a national title with a freshman Thornton (who, in all likelihood, still wouldn't start over a senior Walton); and (2) I think a sophomore Winston - especially if he's joined by two other stud sophomore scoring options (any of Battle, Langford, Towns, Hughes, Rowan), will be a better player than a freshman Thornton.

Moreover, I think the coaching staff prefers two years of Winston to one year of Thornton, and then having to recruit and break in a new freshman PG for 2017.

If the only piece we were missing in 2016 was an elite PG - and we were in the “rent a freshman point guard for one year” mindset - I would absolutely want Thornton. But that doesn’t seem to me the case.

Winston not visiting yesterday tells me all I need to know with him. We’ll be seeing him for 4 years in Spartan green.

Why do you say that? Do we even know why he didn’t visit? He’s been to our campus a ton already, so I’m not sure I get the absolute pessimism there.

Not really pessimism, more of a historical trend. Generally speaking kids that visit here multiple times, seem to have sincere interest, and have a prolonged recruitment, don’t end up coming here. Bluiett, Coleman, Amir Williams, Booker, Kennard…you see where this ends up

If you want to see a historical trend that is fine. But each recruitment is different. I’m not saying we get Winston. I’m just saying I don’t see why him not visiting yesterday means he goes to Sparty.

I never claimed he was going to MSU. I simply said that visiting multiple times doesn’t mean he is leaning toward UM, or that we have a realistic chance, as evidenced by historical trends.

I didn’t say you said he was going to MSU. I was responding to others. The real point is that just because other kids followed a pattern and did not pick Michigan does not mean that Winston will follow suit. Every recruitment is different.

LOL - now the incoming PG recruit might redshirt, Matt? Let’s see - Morris, Burke, Albrecht, and Walton. Four JB PG recruits, three of whom started, and a lightly regarded guy (Spike) who scored 17 in one half against Louisville. And now MAAR, another lightly recruited kid who at least qualifies as a combo guard, and he didn’t redshirt either.

You obviously just made an honest mistake about the years, but instead of just admitting it, now you’re inventing reasons why we wouldn’t take a PG in 2017.

As far as Edwards, I noticed him on film too and he’s very athletic for a guy his size. That said, we’re tight on scholarships (only two to give for 2015 and that assumes Caris leaves), so I imagine we either hit a home run with a 2015 kid (Jaylen Brown, huge longshot but you never know) or save it for 2016. I feel like there are other recruits as good or better than Edwards in 2016 (like Jefferson, for example) if we miss on the top guys. Again, we’ll still have Walton and MAAR at the point if we don’t land one in 2016.

Hopefully we can just get Winston and that will be that.

Dylan - you think the staff would give Hyron Edwards another look if things don't go according to plan with the 16 recruits? The kid can't shoot, but he sure can penetrate. I'm thinking package deal with Jefferson might not be such a bad idea. Would rather have Edwards than be stuck with nothing at all come 17

No, I wouldn’t expect that.

Dylan - you think the staff would give Hyron Edwards another look if things don't go according to plan with the 16 recruits? The kid can't shoot, but he sure can penetrate. I'm thinking package deal with Jefferson might not be such a bad idea. Would rather have Edwards than be stuck with nothing at all come 17

Timing-wise, how could they? I have seen nothing to indicate Winston, Langford, Battle, etc. are deciding before the '15 spring signing period.

Plus, it appears that Edwards has legit offers from Purdue and IU. I’m not sure that we could swoop in in the 11th hour and land him.

What do you mean ‘how could they’ - very easily, offer Edwards a scholarship if the staff doesn’t feel confident in how things are going with the 16 class. They did it with Jalen Coleman. Probably not the course of action the staff will take, but it is an option if they are not confident on the 16 class come April

Thank you for explaining how scholarship offers work. Super enlightening. I was questioning how they could realistically get back in the race for Edwards after seemingly not recruiting him for so long. Spring signing period is coming up in April. He’s an Indiana kid being recruited by Purdue and IU. Plus, you said yourself that JB is “Topeka” and his car equivalent is a “civic.” Seems unlikely that such a bland coach would be able to swoop in at the last minute and land a recruit with those types of offers, no?

Much easier to compete against IU and especially Purdue. So you can be Topeka when your main competition is Kansas City…discrepancy isn’t so large

Timing shouldn’t be much of an issue, some school seemingly swoops in on us at the last minute to nab a recruit…perhaps we can return the favor for once

LOL - now the incoming PG recruit might redshirt, Matt? Let's see - Morris, Burke, Albrecht, and Walton. Four JB PG recruits, three of whom started, and a lightly regarded guy (Spike) who scored 17 in one half against Louisville. And now MAAR, another lightly recruited kid who at least qualifies as a combo guard, and he didn't redshirt either.

You obviously just made an honest mistake about the years, but instead of just admitting it, now you’re inventing reasons why we wouldn’t take a PG in 2017.

As far as Edwards, I noticed him on film too and he’s very athletic for a guy his size. That said, we’re tight on scholarships (only two to give for 2015 and that assumes Caris leaves), so I imagine we either hit a home run with a 2015 kid (Jaylen Brown, huge longshot but you never know) or save it for 2016. I feel like there are other recruits as good or better than Edwards in 2016 (like Jefferson, for example) if we miss on the top guys. Again, we’ll still have Walton and MAAR at the point if we don’t land one in 2016.

Hopefully we can just get Winston and that will be that.

Didn’t make a mistake on years. I simply don’t believe that having MAAR and a true freshman PG (assuming he doesn’t redshirt) as your only ballhandlers in 17 on the roster is a plausible plan…and apparently you do.

You must have overlooked the fact that JB literally requested Trey take a greyshirt scholarship because the plan was to redshirt him. Spike would have redshirted too, but not for the fact that we literally had 1 other ballhandler on the roster (seems like we’re heading down that path if we don’t grab one in 16). Bottom line, it’s never a good thing to rely on a true freshman PG…you assume JB can find miracles every year.

Its not about getting scholarships at any position, its about getting ballhandlers. We have a desparate need for a ballhandler in 16. For instance, getting Jefferson doesn’t negate the need for a PG. Even if we get Langford, you still need another one. 2 ballhandlers on the 16-17 roster is simply a recipe for disater.

I think Michigan will take a point guard in 2016. Would be very surprised if they didn’t.

I think Michigan will take a point guard in 2016. Would be very surprised if they didn't.

Agree. No way you can wait until 17. Even if its an under the radar kid, we simply require another ballhandler under any scenario.

LOL - now the incoming PG recruit might redshirt, Matt? Let's see - Morris, Burke, Albrecht, and Walton. Four JB PG recruits, three of whom started, and a lightly regarded guy (Spike) who scored 17 in one half against Louisville. And now MAAR, another lightly recruited kid who at least qualifies as a combo guard, and he didn't redshirt either.

You obviously just made an honest mistake about the years, but instead of just admitting it, now you’re inventing reasons why we wouldn’t take a PG in 2017.

As far as Edwards, I noticed him on film too and he’s very athletic for a guy his size. That said, we’re tight on scholarships (only two to give for 2015 and that assumes Caris leaves), so I imagine we either hit a home run with a 2015 kid (Jaylen Brown, huge longshot but you never know) or save it for 2016. I feel like there are other recruits as good or better than Edwards in 2016 (like Jefferson, for example) if we miss on the top guys. Again, we’ll still have Walton and MAAR at the point if we don’t land one in 2016.

Hopefully we can just get Winston and that will be that.

Didn’t make a mistake on years. I simply don’t believe that having MAAR and a true freshman PG (assuming he doesn’t redshirt) as your only ballhandlers in 17 on the roster is a plausible plan…and apparently you do.

You must have overlooked the fact that JB literally requested Trey take a greyshirt scholarship because the plan was to redshirt him. Spike would have redshirted too, but not for the fact that we literally had 1 other ballhandler on the roster (seems like we’re heading down that path if we don’t grab one in 16). Bottom line, it’s never a good thing to rely on a true freshman PG…you assume JB can find miracles every year.

Its not about getting scholarships at any position, its about getting ballhandlers. We have a desparate need for a ballhandler in 16. For instance, getting Jefferson doesn’t negate the need for a PG. Even if we get Langford, you still need another one. 2 ballhandlers on the 16-17 roster is simply a recipe for disater.

Matt, when we offered Trey a scholarship, there was never a greyshirt condition attached to it. Never. We had an offer out to Kevin Pangos, and had, I believe, given him until a set date to respond before offering anyone else at the PG position–it is possible that during that period, JB discussed with Trey the possibility that if Pangos accepted, he could greyshirt Trey in the following year (though I am told by someone who absolutely would know that this isn’t the case)–but once that period passed, there was never any intent to do anything other than immediately offer Trey, whom they loved, and play him as a freshman, Darius or no Darius. By the way, had Pangos taken their offer, he was NOT going to be redshirted, Darius or no Darius

And at no time was there any plan to redshirt Spike. None. Indeed, he was taken precisely because we did not have other ballhandlers on the roster. Had we had such players, we would not have extended him an offer at all–because we didn’t, we offered him and expected him to play right away.

JB has never redshirted a guard at Michigan. I do not believe he ever redshirted one at WVU. I agree that we need ballhandlers, and would strongly prefer to get one in '16 rather than wait until '17, but the notion that we would redshirt a freshman PG in '17 if we did not already have a '16 at the position has no basis in reality.

LOL - now the incoming PG recruit might redshirt, Matt? Let's see - Morris, Burke, Albrecht, and Walton. Four JB PG recruits, three of whom started, and a lightly regarded guy (Spike) who scored 17 in one half against Louisville. And now MAAR, another lightly recruited kid who at least qualifies as a combo guard, and he didn't redshirt either.

You obviously just made an honest mistake about the years, but instead of just admitting it, now you’re inventing reasons why we wouldn’t take a PG in 2017.

As far as Edwards, I noticed him on film too and he’s very athletic for a guy his size. That said, we’re tight on scholarships (only two to give for 2015 and that assumes Caris leaves), so I imagine we either hit a home run with a 2015 kid (Jaylen Brown, huge longshot but you never know) or save it for 2016. I feel like there are other recruits as good or better than Edwards in 2016 (like Jefferson, for example) if we miss on the top guys. Again, we’ll still have Walton and MAAR at the point if we don’t land one in 2016.

Hopefully we can just get Winston and that will be that.

Didn’t make a mistake on years. I simply don’t believe that having MAAR and a true freshman PG (assuming he doesn’t redshirt) as your only ballhandlers in 17 on the roster is a plausible plan…and apparently you do.

You must have overlooked the fact that JB literally requested Trey take a greyshirt scholarship because the plan was to redshirt him. Spike would have redshirted too, but not for the fact that we literally had 1 other ballhandler on the roster (seems like we’re heading down that path if we don’t grab one in 16). Bottom line, it’s never a good thing to rely on a true freshman PG…you assume JB can find miracles every year.

Its not about getting scholarships at any position, its about getting ballhandlers. We have a desparate need for a ballhandler in 16. For instance, getting Jefferson doesn’t negate the need for a PG. Even if we get Langford, you still need another one. 2 ballhandlers on the 16-17 roster is simply a recipe for disater.

Matt, when we offered Trey a scholarship, there was never a greyshirt condition attached to it. Never. We had an offer out to Kevin Pangos, and had, I believe, given him until a set date to respond before offering anyone else at the PG position–it is possible that during that period, JB discussed with Trey the possibility that if Pangos accepted, he could greyshirt Trey in the following year (though I am told by someone who absolutely would know that this isn’t the case)–but once that period passed, there was never any intent to do anything other than immediately offer Trey, whom they loved, and play him as a freshman, Darius or no Darius. By the way, had Pangos taken their offer, he was NOT going to be redshirted, Darius or no Darius

And at no time was there any plan to redshirt Spike. None. Indeed, he was taken precisely because we did not have other ballhandlers on the roster. Had we had such players, we would not have extended him an offer at all–because we didn’t, we offered him and expected him to play right away.

JB has never redshirted a guard at Michigan. I do not believe he ever redshirted one at WVU. I agree that we need ballhandlers, and would strongly prefer to get one in '16 rather than wait until '17, but the notion that we would redshirt a freshman PG in '17 if we did not already have a '16 at the position has no basis in reality.

This is absolutely false in relation to Trey. JB initially wanted Trey to take a greyshirt, and Benji Burke had to force JB’s hand and essentially issue an ultimatum - either offer a full scholarship or we’re heading to Cincy - at least according to Benji Burke.

Spike - you are essentially saying the same thing I am. Spike did not RS because Trey was the only ballhandler on the team at that point…

LOL - now the incoming PG recruit might redshirt, Matt? Let's see - Morris, Burke, Albrecht, and Walton. Four JB PG recruits, three of whom started, and a lightly regarded guy (Spike) who scored 17 in one half against Louisville. And now MAAR, another lightly recruited kid who at least qualifies as a combo guard, and he didn't redshirt either.

You obviously just made an honest mistake about the years, but instead of just admitting it, now you’re inventing reasons why we wouldn’t take a PG in 2017.

As far as Edwards, I noticed him on film too and he’s very athletic for a guy his size. That said, we’re tight on scholarships (only two to give for 2015 and that assumes Caris leaves), so I imagine we either hit a home run with a 2015 kid (Jaylen Brown, huge longshot but you never know) or save it for 2016. I feel like there are other recruits as good or better than Edwards in 2016 (like Jefferson, for example) if we miss on the top guys. Again, we’ll still have Walton and MAAR at the point if we don’t land one in 2016.

Hopefully we can just get Winston and that will be that.

Didn’t make a mistake on years. I simply don’t believe that having MAAR and a true freshman PG (assuming he doesn’t redshirt) as your only ballhandlers in 17 on the roster is a plausible plan…and apparently you do.

You must have overlooked the fact that JB literally requested Trey take a greyshirt scholarship because the plan was to redshirt him. Spike would have redshirted too, but not for the fact that we literally had 1 other ballhandler on the roster (seems like we’re heading down that path if we don’t grab one in 16). Bottom line, it’s never a good thing to rely on a true freshman PG…you assume JB can find miracles every year.

Its not about getting scholarships at any position, its about getting ballhandlers. We have a desparate need for a ballhandler in 16. For instance, getting Jefferson doesn’t negate the need for a PG. Even if we get Langford, you still need another one. 2 ballhandlers on the 16-17 roster is simply a recipe for disater.

Matt, when we offered Trey a scholarship, there was never a greyshirt condition attached to it. Never. We had an offer out to Kevin Pangos, and had, I believe, given him until a set date to respond before offering anyone else at the PG position–it is possible that during that period, JB discussed with Trey the possibility that if Pangos accepted, he could greyshirt Trey in the following year (though I am told by someone who absolutely would know that this isn’t the case)–but once that period passed, there was never any intent to do anything other than immediately offer Trey, whom they loved, and play him as a freshman, Darius or no Darius. By the way, had Pangos taken their offer, he was NOT going to be redshirted, Darius or no Darius

And at no time was there any plan to redshirt Spike. None. Indeed, he was taken precisely because we did not have other ballhandlers on the roster. Had we had such players, we would not have extended him an offer at all–because we didn’t, we offered him and expected him to play right away.

JB has never redshirted a guard at Michigan. I do not believe he ever redshirted one at WVU. I agree that we need ballhandlers, and would strongly prefer to get one in '16 rather than wait until '17, but the notion that we would redshirt a freshman PG in '17 if we did not already have a '16 at the position has no basis in reality.

This is absolutely false in relation to Trey. JB initially wanted Trey to take a greyshirt, and Benji Burke had to force JB’s hand and essentially issue an ultimatum - either offer a full scholarship or we’re heading to Cincy - at least according to Benji Burke.

Spike - you are essentially saying the same thing I am. Spike did not RS because Trey was the only ballhandler on the team at that point…

Nothing I said was “absolutely false,” or even partially false. As I said in the post, it’s possible that there was an exclusive Pangos offer window out there, and that, if that was the case, greyshirting may have been discussed with Burke but IF that occurred (I’m hearing a very different story directly from someone who would absolutely know–did you talk to Benji Burke about this or hear it second hand?), it was only because they wanted to take both Pangos and Burke, and were running out of scholarships. They didn’t want to take a PG and redshirt him, which is what you have repeatedly said to LA could occur in '17–they wanted, IF your scenario is correct, to take 2 PGs and stagger them between classes (and ensure that scholarships were available).

Bottom line–we will not redshirt a PG in '16 or '17 barring injury. You keep talking about what history suggests in terms of how our recruiting will turn out; shouldn’t you also look at history in terms of whether JB has ever redshirted a PG?

You may be hearing a different story, but that story doesn’t seem to add up with context per this interview conducted by Joe Stapleton in August 2010.

‘Does he plan on visiting Michigan? We don’t know. We’re still waiting to see what Michigan wants to do. They really want someone to come in for 2011 to prep or redshirt so they come in as the 2012 class. So that was the last we heard from Michigan, and he’s definitely interested in Michigan, because it’s a Big Ten school and it’s close. And, you know, we grew up Big Ten, so that’s something he would definitely love, to come see Ann Arbor.’

Furthermore, I had the opportunity to speak with Benji Burke personally during May 2014, at the Nike Midwest showdown in Cincinati (my daughter had an AAU event and Benji is part of the All Ohio AAU program). He confirmed to me personally that the initial offer was for a greyshirt, and that he had to force JB’s hand.

I’m not saying JB will RS a guard, I’m simply saying that waiting until 17 for a ballhandler is not a very good thing.

Couple things here…

  1. Michigan wanted Pangos more than Burke. I think MHoops and MattD both agree there. Seems like you are both saying the same thing in as many words.

  2. Spike was brought in specifically to play as a freshman. It’s not that they recruited him with a plan to RS and then they needed him. They recruited him because they wanted a guy to play 5-10 minutes per game backing up Trey and probably for the rest of his career.

  3. The point guard recruiting plan that Michigan has shot for is 1 PG every two years. Ideally that would be a year or two under the previous guard to learn – obviously hasn’t happened that way. But you bring in a PG in 2016 and he would play. RSs seem much more useful for bigs or guys that need physical development (Wilson, LeVert, Donnal).

Nothing in that Joe Stapleton article references a “grey shirt.” Sure, it’s possible that before Darius unexpectedly declared for the draft, they thought he and Stu were good enough ballhandlers that they could redshirt either Burke or Pangos, especially since Brundidge was part of that class too and they no doubt assumed (incorrectly as it turned out) that Brundidge could play right away.

In any event, you’re completely overstating the need for ballhandlers. In 2010/11, we had only Darius and Stu (who is far from an ideal PG). In 2011/12, we had Burke and Stu. We were pretty good in both years.

Would it be ideal to get Winston? Of course. Could we survive with a senior Walton, junior MAAR, and some wings to chip in handling the ball? I think so. I also don’t think it would ever be the plan to redshirt a PG unless we already have two or more clear options at the position.

You may be hearing a different story, but that story doesn't seem to add up with context per this interview conducted by Joe Stapleton in August 2010.

‘Does he plan on visiting Michigan? We don’t know. We’re still waiting to see what Michigan wants to do. They really want someone to come in for 2011 to prep or redshirt so they come in as the 2012 class. So that was the last we heard from Michigan, and he’s definitely interested in Michigan, because it’s a Big Ten school and it’s close. And, you know, we grew up Big Ten, so that’s something he would definitely love, to come see Ann Arbor.’

Furthermore, I had the opportunity to speak with Benji Burke personally during May 2014, at the Nike Midwest showdown in Cincinati (my daughter had an AAU event and Benji is part of the All Ohio AAU program). He confirmed to me personally that the initial offer was for a greyshirt, and that he had to force JB’s hand.

I’m not saying JB will RS a guard, I’m simply saying that waiting until 17 for a ballhandler is not a very good thing.

Joe’s article, quoting Benji, notes that he talked to Benji at a recent AAU Tournament which, given the dates on which AAU tournaments were held, had to have occurred a week or two earlier (likely two, given the site’s reports). At that time, we had just gotten on Trey (after his decommit from PSU), and Pangos had just visited and was considered a real possibility for a quick commitment. Trey, per Benji’s own words, had not yet visited Michigan, or even committed to do so. JB does not extend offers prior to a visit. I believe Benji if he says that a greyshirt was discussed–I also believe my source who says that once Trey agreed to visit, they went all out after him, and no one had to force JB’s hand to offer. Seriously, given your oft-stated criticisms of JB’s stubbornness in recruiting, do you believe that JB would be pressured into shifting gears from greyshirt to full offer in a few days by the father of a kid who, at the time, had no offer better than Cincy on his plate? Respectfully, I think you’re missing context here.

Nothing in that Joe Stapleton article references a "grey shirt." Sure, it's possible that before Darius unexpectedly declared for the draft, they thought he and Stu were good enough ballhandlers that they could redshirt either Burke or Pangos, especially since Brundidge was part of that class too and they no doubt assumed (incorrectly as it turned out) that Brundidge could play right away.

In any event, you’re completely overstating the need for ballhandlers. In 2010/11, we had only Darius and Stu (who is far from an ideal PG). In 2011/12, we had Burke and Stu. We were pretty good in both years.

Would it be ideal to get Winston? Of course. Could we survive with a senior Walton, junior MAAR, and some wings to chip in handling the ball? I think so. I also don’t think it would ever be the plan to redshirt a PG unless we already have two or more clear options at the position.

Yes, it actually does refer to greyshirting. When you tell a recruit ‘we’d like you to prep a year’, then we will take you the subsequent year, that is the equivalent of a greyshirt.

You can ridicule me all you want if you don’t care for my opinions, but don’t pretend as if I’m a liar…that is simply not true. I am conveying truthful information to the very best of my knowledge.

Prepping for year may be equivalent to grey shirting, but it is not grey shirting.

Matt, relax, I’m not calling you a liar. Here is the what I’ve always understood grey shirting to mean: http://insider.espn.go.com/insider/story?id=10430908.

Indeed, I’ve never even seen it used in basketball. But either way, when we started recruiting Burke, he had already decommitted from PSU and had an offer from Cincinnati. I think there’s no way we would have offered him the option to, essentially, pay for a semester of college on his own dime when another good program had already offered him a full ride.

So again, with Morris, Douglas and Brundidge already there, I do believe it’s possible JB wanted to create some space between his primary PGs (since no one knew Morris was headed to the NBA after two years - sure didn’t look that way as a freshman). But I can’t imagine offering Burke a grey shirt. I don’t think we’ve ever offered that to anyone, and we have certainly recruited plenty of guys who were lesser rated than Burke.

I guess it doesn’t really matter about the Burke situation. All I know is that we need 2 ball handlers prior to 17. We can get by with either Langford or a PG in 16, but ideally you want 3 people that can handle the rock on the roster.