2016 Point Guard Recruiting (Xavier Simpson)

posted this in the wrong thread:

And before you say “the 2014 isn’t a top 10-15 class”- that is obvious. I’m saying as a whole, the past 3 year window Michigan easily has been a top 10-15 recruiting program. If Beilein was as bad as other coaches at getting players to the NBA, this 2014/2015 would be loaded. Trey Burke was in the same class as Frank Kaminsky. Stauskas, McGary, and GRIII were in the same class as Dekker. Could you imagine if Beilein’s talent stayed on campus the way Bo Ryans does?

What about the 2015 class? It is probably the worst ranked class JB has recruited. Meanwhile the 2016 class has fallen off a cliff. I understand this season being down given the talent departure. I don’t understand the recruiting getting worse.

This guy gets it, the long term trajectory seems to be headed the wrong way from a talent perspective. This has been my chief complaint for the past 6 months

I'll say this JB might be able to buy some time to develop because in my honest opinion Caris isn't worthy of a 1st round pick. He's a very good catch and shoot player, and very mediocre at all other things as a lead guard.

Does Bo Ryan get more credit than John Beilein because he was unable to get Dekker and Kaminsky into the league until after their Jr and Sr seasons? Bo Ryan hasn’t had to deal with any attrition.

Here is your argument in a nutshell - let’s pout because life isn’t fair for JB…other coaches don’t have to deal with attrition so why should he?

Give me a damn break, that’s 6th grade nonsense. Guess what, life isn’t fair, that’s why you plan ahead. In this particular case that translates to recruiting better players in the event that you lose players to the extent your team doesn’t experience a drop off in production.

No matter what your logic is, there is simply no excuse. Our incoming personnel simply isn’t on the same stratosphere in terms of talent, and JB shoulders that blame. Recruit better and you don’t incur these problems. The man had 5 incoming recruits, and not a single player has made a significant impact…that isn’t going to cut it

It wouldn’t have to cut it if he wasn’t so good at getting his top tier talent into the NBA. It isn’t an excuse. I’m saying that we shouldn’t DEMAND that John Beilein, at a B-list program, recruits 150% - 200% the number of top tier players as other good coaches (Izzo, Ryan, etc.). Beilein is a top 10-15 coach at a top 10-15 program and should be expected to land the same number of top tier players as other top 10-15 programs. Since 2012, how many coaches have landed more top tier players than Beilein? Not many.

You recruit and sign top tier players as needed, not according to what other programs may, or may not do. Strict quantity is a bogus argument because as you say those other teams haven’t experienced the same attrition, hence they haven’t signed as many players. Just more excuses.

posted this in the wrong thread:

And before you say “the 2014 isn’t a top 10-15 class”- that is obvious. I’m saying as a whole, the past 3 year window Michigan easily has been a top 10-15 recruiting program. If Beilein was as bad as other coaches at getting players to the NBA, this 2014/2015 would be loaded. Trey Burke was in the same class as Frank Kaminsky. Stauskas, McGary, and GRIII were in the same class as Dekker. Could you imagine if Beilein’s talent stayed on campus the way Bo Ryans does?

What about the 2015 class? It is probably the worst ranked class JB has recruited. Meanwhile the 2016 class has fallen off a cliff. I understand this season being down given the talent departure. I don’t understand the recruiting getting worse.

93grade, I’m going to give you the benefit of the doubt because I think you’re objective and not just trolling like that other clown. I’ve already stated my displeasure about the 2014 and 2015 classes multiple times to him and he repeatedly ignores that to build some sort of weird strawman. He specifically asked me about my opinions, I answered, and yet he continues to push this “you think we’ll be fine!!” b/s.

He specifically asked for my opinions on this season and going forward. At first, I thought it was genuine so I gave a genuine answer.

"My take is that our three most talented bigs are all freshmen and none of them really have much talent. I knew that this was going to be a weakness going in, but never thought it would be THIS devastating of a weakness. It’s like Michigan is playing 3 on 5 at times because 1) On defense, anything in the paint goes for an easy basket and 2) On offense, the guards are forced to take bad shots / bad passes because the bigs are so outmatched. I hope that 1 of the three freshman can give us freshman Jordan Morgan level production by February, but even that is appearing unlikely. If One of them could do that, I could see this team going ~10-8 still.

The lack of talent going forward is worrisome. If LeVert leaves, which I think is still probable, this team is going to be mind-numbingly underwhelming next season. "

He is well aware of how I feel about the 2014 and 2015 classes. Yet, he will continue to troll with comments like this (that came after my bolded post).

But the past is the past, and I think it’s safe to say this year is going to be a down year at minimum. My question to you is do you see the future getting brighter assuming we don’t add any new personnel, which seems very likely. If not, will you eat crow?

So just as you hate the complaining, I hate the constant cheerleading and promotion when the downward trend was so obvious to anybody with their eyes open. You let wins taint your better judgment into thinking JB could just roll out any Tom Dick and Harry because he 'develops' players.........it doesn't work like that my friend
I think you are foolish if you think we are going to be a good team in the future without success on the recruiting trail........
Hail - seriously, I really am curious as to what it would take for you to admit a) recruiting needs to drastically improve. B) be frustrated with JB as a coach

Despite me answering his question to me a week ago and me stating my displeasure about the 2014 and 2015 classes, he continues to antagonize with these fallacies. This is called a troll and forums are better without them.

You recruit and sign top tier players as needed, not according to what other programs may, or may not do. Strict quantity is a bogus argument because as you say those other teams haven't experienced the same attrition, hence they haven't signed as many players. Just more excuses.

Explanations, not excuses. I wouldn’t expect a mental midget like yourself to differentiate the two. Keep trolling, sport.

I'll say this JB might be able to buy some time to develop because in my honest opinion Caris isn't worthy of a 1st round pick. He's a very good catch and shoot player, and very mediocre at all other things as a lead guard.

Does Bo Ryan get more credit than John Beilein because he was unable to get Dekker and Kaminsky into the league until after their Jr and Sr seasons? Bo Ryan hasn’t had to deal with any attrition.

Here is your argument in a nutshell - let’s pout because life isn’t fair for JB…other coaches don’t have to deal with attrition so why should he?

Give me a damn break, that’s 6th grade nonsense. Guess what, life isn’t fair, that’s why you plan ahead. In this particular case that translates to recruiting better players in the event that you lose players to the extent your team doesn’t experience a drop off in production.

No matter what your logic is, there is simply no excuse. Our incoming personnel simply isn’t on the same stratosphere in terms of talent, and JB shoulders that blame. Recruit better and you don’t incur these problems. The man had 5 incoming recruits, and not a single player has made a significant impact…that isn’t going to cut it

It wouldn’t have to cut it if he wasn’t so good at getting his top tier talent into the NBA. It isn’t an excuse. I’m saying that we shouldn’t DEMAND that John Beilein, at a B-list program, recruits 150% - 200% the number of top tier players as other good coaches (Izzo, Ryan, etc.). Beilein is a top 10-15 coach at a top 10-15 program and should be expected to land the same number of top tier players as other top 10-15 programs. Since 2012, how many coaches have landed more top tier players than Beilein? Not many.

Wait, so are we a B list program or a top 10-15 program? I Am confused.

Explain this to me - in this particular case, where is the line between excuse and explanation other than your narrative?

You’ve already conceded that JB hasn’t done a good job recruiting in 14 and 15, so just leave it at that rather than trying to justify.

Bottom line, MORE TALENT…absolutely no excuses, that is the landscape of sports. That is why JB gets compensated 7 figures

Hail- I won’t get in the middle of your guys battle. But I appreciate your concerns about the recent recruiting dip. I keep posting about it more out of surprise than anything else. It is so bizarre to me that recruiting has fallen as the team has gotten better. A true paradox. Hopefully it is just an isolated blip on the radar and the 2016 class cures our future ails. The 2012-14 seasons were just so fun to watch, that I don’t want it to stop.

Hail- I won't get in the middle of your guys battle. But I appreciate your concerns about the recent recruiting dip. I keep posting about it more out of surprise than anything else. It is so bizarre to me that recruiting has fallen as the team has gotten better. A true paradox. Hopefully it is just an isolated blip on the radar and the 2016 class cures our future ails. The 2012-14 seasons were just so fun to watch, that I don't want it to stop.

I agree. It truly is baffling.

Matt, your argument is absurd. The only advantage Amaker's recruits had was in *rankings* alone. That's your only basis for saying they had more "raw talent." When they actually took the court, only a guy like Horton would have played much for JB's teams, and even he wasn't nearly as good as Burke or Morris. I'd also agree bigs like Hunter and Sims (who did nothing under Amaker's coaching) would have been good in JB's offense.

It’s funny, you accuse me of being a homer, but you’re the exact opposite - a whiny, critical, never happy fan no matter how good things are, and always ready to say “I told you so” at the slightest bit of adversity, in addition to engaging in constant exaggerated hyperbole to make your point. I think I spreak for 90% of this board when I say your act is ridiculous.



This is spot on. It’s basically Guestavo 2.0 and it’s getting tiresome to read.

Sadly, this. It’s gotten to that point.

Quentin Goodin finished with 36 points and 10 rebounds to lead Taylor County past Wayne County. Was 4 for 9 from 3-point range.

— Jason Frakes (@kyhighs) December 22, 2014
Hell, even HfH, who worked under JB t WVU (at least this is what he claims) conceded that. He explicitly said JB wants all MAC guys.........that told me all I needed to know. He sets the bar low.......can't win like that in my view.

This plain and simple shows how you’ll take something and completely twist it to fit your Beilein hating agenda.

You’re simply a HATER and your schtick is getting old.

Exactly what am I hating on? The blind loyalty is getting old, at least some people here are finally starting to realize that my concerns regarding recruiting we’re legit. If, by stating that our staff needs to do a better job recruiting or the on court production would suffer, makes me a hater…then I guess im full of hate. On the other hand, what if hating is defined as attempting to ridicule a valid concern because that concern doesn’t fit your BS agenda of supporting the coach despite the obvious flaws?

6-8 months ago many kept saying (JBlair included) “he is winning so what can you complain about” and “you just hate the way he wins because we don’t have athletes”…fast forward 6-8 months later and my concerns don’t look so misguided…because guess what, we’re not winning because the guy simply couldn’t recruit

As I’ve maintained, I challenge you or anyone else for that matter, to provide an explanation of what exactly makes me a hater or a troll? Bottom line, some people here love JB as a coach…and that is fine. Does it make me a bad guy because I don’t…

Exactly what am I hating on? The blind loyalty is getting old, at least some people here are finally starting to realize that my concerns regarding recruiting we're legit. If, by stating that our staff needs to do a better job recruiting or the on court production would suffer, makes me a hater........then I guess im full of hate. On the other hand, what if hating is defined as attempting to ridicule a valid concern because that concern doesn't fit your BS agenda of supporting the coach despite the obvious flaws?

6-8 months ago many kept saying (JBlair included) “he is winning so what can you complain about” and “you just hate the way he wins because we don’t have athletes”…fast forward 6-8 months later and my concerns don’t look so misguided…because guess what, we’re not winning because the guy simply couldn’t recruit

As I’ve maintained, I challenge you or anyone else for that matter, to provide an explanation of what exactly makes me a hater or a troll? Bottom line, some people here love JB as a coach…and that is fine. Does it make me a bad guy because I don’t…

I don’t care if you don’t like him. That’s not the point. I have plenty of concerns.

But you like to be the biggest mouth in the room so that’s why your crap is getting old.

We all get that we’re not Kentucky or Duke or Kansas. I don’t think anyone here thought we would be. But we don’t need you hijacking every thread complaining like a little 5 year old with a sick tummy. We heard you the first time. We heard you the second time. And we still hear you EVERY DAY.

But I concede. I think it’s time I stop reading this board.
Your board MattD. You earned it. Whine away buddy.

Here’s the thing, I’m not the one bringing it up (see how you just initiated it by bringing up how I interpreted what someone else said)…that’s just a way for you to attempt to make me look like a hater. I, among others, get sick of the crying every day that “poor little Johnny Beilein, it’s just not fair that his players go the NBA while other coaches don’t have to deal with it”. That is what I call elementary crying…nothing more than pathetic excuses to fit a narrative. I hear it every day, and im sick of it and I heard it the first time. Are those people (you included) haters because they constantly complain about it every day? I would venture to say you don’t think so…because it doesn’t fit your narrative.

So impartial observer here, and basically I see 2 sides blaming each other for the same thing. Matt/G/93 have their side, don’t agree with it they’ll argue for it. JBlair/Hail have their narrative, don’t agree with it, you’re a hater.

Then you have the silent minority (or possibly majority) who can see validity to both arguments. Personally, I think JB is a great offensive coach/innovator who is a great teacher of fundamental principles. I also think he is a substandard defensive coach, though that seems magnified by his preference for fundamentally sound players. Unfortunately, the fundamentally sound players usually get that way because they couldn’t get by on their athleticism.

I do think he has realized that his WVU standard for players is not good enough for the higher level of competition Michigan has been thrust into. He just doesn’t have an on-court product to sell that attracts the run and gun high flyers and athletes. They don’t play pressure defense, both because they don’t have the athletes and because coach abhors fouls. They don’t run consistently. They don’t involve the big men nearly enough for a top guy like Okafor or Lyles to notice. He also has never, in his lengthy career, had to deal with attrition to the NBA.

Bottom line, I like JB as the coach of Michigan and wouldn’t trade him (except maybe for Coack K). If the price for that is deep tourney runs every few years and a bubble team in between then I will live with it. I do think that is the worst case scenario though, and he figures it out and begins to get a higher caliber of player while at the same time planning for the attrition that comes with those players.

Matt, I don’t think anyone should feel sorry for Coach Beilein because we’re losing a lot of players early to the NBA. You correctly suggest it would be myopic for us to think we are the only program impacted by it.

With that said, as I’ve illustrated before, the reality is that many other top programs (I gave you examples of Syracuse this year, UK two years ago, Indiana last year, and UNC after their most recent title) have faced similar rebuilding situations and have missed the tourney.

I think there is a big difference between saying “we don’t have any talent” and “the guys we have are going to take a little while to develop.” Personally, I was guilty of being too optimistic about how quickly guys like Irvin and Chatman could take on big roles. Similarly, I thought Caris was ready to be a star this year, but he’s not.

I still think all our top guys have plenty of talent (Walton, Chatman, Caris, Irvin), but they are not ready this season to contend for a Big Ten title. Additionally, I’ve seen plenty of improvement from Donnal in the past two games, and Doyle was good tonight too (albeit against weak competition). So I do think both those guys will eventually be pretty good.

The dilemma here is patience. People expect a top 10 team every year, and when it doesn’t happen, they get upset. The reality is this - Beilein’s teams from the past two years were extremely remarkable because they were so young and still won at a very impressive clip.

When you start a team with two freshmen (Doyle, Chatman), two sophomores (Irvin, Walton), and one junior (Caris), the issue shouldn’t be whether the team is great right now, the issue should be whether that core group of guys can and will improve enough that in a year or two, they are capable of achieving great things.

As far as recruiting, clearly we had a great 2012 class and, at least on paper, another very strong 2013 class (don’t forget Hatch was a nice part of that class before the plane crash). The last two classes haven’t been as good, though again, from this current class I think both Chatman and Doyle will develop into very good players, and I’m not ready to write off Wilson yet either.

I also think playing time is an issue with recruits. From the 2014 class, guys like Booker and Blackmon saw an immediate path to playing time at UK and Indiana. When they committed, no one had any idea Stauskas would blow up last year and leave early. Similarly, even for 2015, a kid like Jalen Brunson no doubt saw Walton as an entrenched starter.

In any event, 2016 is a huge year to start replenishing star power. Playing time will be available, and the team already has plenty of role players (Robinson, Dawkins, MAAR). At this rate, the core group of Walton, Chatman and Irvin will all still be here, but we need that next stud PG, that next stud two guard, and a wing scorer (hopefully Towns) to add to Teske.

In some respects, getting Winston (or a Ramsey or Goodin) might actually be best for the long term success of the program, as Thornton is probably a one and done guy.

In short, I can live with the misses in 2014 and 2015 as long as we bring in some stars in 2016.

So impartial observer here, and basically I see 2 sides blaming each other for the same thing. Matt/G/93 have their side, don't agree with it they'll argue for it. JBlair/Hail have their narrative, don't agree with it, you're a hater.

Then you have the silent minority (or possibly majority) who can see validity to both arguments. Personally, I think JB is a great offensive coach/innovator who is a great teacher of fundamental principles. I also think he is a substandard defensive coach, though that seems magnified by his preference for fundamentally sound players. Unfortunately, the fundamentally sound players usually get that way because they couldn’t get by on their athleticism.

I do think he has realized that his WVU standard for players is not good enough for the higher level of competition Michigan has been thrust into. He just doesn’t have an on-court product to sell that attracts the run and gun high flyers and athletes. They don’t play pressure defense, both because they don’t have the athletes and because coach abhors fouls. They don’t run consistently. They don’t involve the big men nearly enough for a top guy like Okafor or Lyles to notice. He also has never, in his lengthy career, had to deal with attrition to the NBA.

Bottom line, I like JB as the coach of Michigan and wouldn’t trade him (except maybe for Coack K). If the price for that is deep tourney runs every few years and a bubble team in between then I will live with it. I do think that is the worst case scenario though, and he figures it out and begins to get a higher caliber of player while at the same time planning for the attrition that comes with those players.

You pretty much hit the nail on the head. Just for the record, in no way am I advocating that JB should be fired, or that I don’t think he’s an above average/good coach…because he is an above average/good coach.

I’ve stated many times, we just have to accept the reality that with JB’s current recruiting trajectory (lack of getting elite talent on a very general level), we just have to be content with being a 3rd to 5th place team in the B10 most years, with the occasional horrible year, with a deep tourney run every 4-5 years when all his players become upperclassmen at once and we have 1-2 studs.

Certainly better relative to where we were, but not a top 10-15 program…that’s all I’m saying here folks

Matt, I don't think anyone should feel sorry for Coach Beilein because we're losing a lot of players early to the NBA. You correctly suggest it would be myopic for us to think we are the only program impacted by it.

With that said, as I’ve illustrated before, the reality is that many other top programs (I gave you examples of Syracuse this year, UK two years ago, Indiana last year, and UNC after their most recent title) have faced similar rebuilding situations and have missed the tourney.

I think there is a big difference between saying “we don’t have any talent” and “the guys we have are going to take a little while to develop.” Personally, I was guilty of being too optimistic about how quickly guys like Irvin and Chatman could take on big roles. Similarly, I thought Caris was ready to be a star this year, but he’s not.

I still think all our top guys have plenty of talent (Walton, Chatman, Caris, Irvin), but they are not ready this season to contend for a Big Ten title. Additionally, I’ve seen plenty of improvement from Donnal in the past two games, and Doyle was good tonight too (albeit against weak competition). So I do think both those guys will eventually be pretty good.

The dilemma here is patience. People expect a top 10 team every year, and when it doesn’t happen, they get upset. The reality is this - Beilein’s teams from the past two years were extremely remarkable because they were so young and still won at a very impressive clip.

When you start a team with two freshmen (Doyle, Chatman), two sophomores (Irvin, Walton), and one junior (Caris), the issue shouldn’t be whether the team is great right now, the issue should be whether that core group of guys can and will improve enough that in a year or two, they are capable of achieving great things.

As far as recruiting, clearly we had a great 2012 class and, at least on paper, another very strong 2013 class (don’t forget Hatch was a nice part of that class before the plane crash). The last two classes haven’t been as good, though again, from this current class I think both Chatman and Doyle will develop into very good players, and I’m not ready to write off Wilson yet either.

I also think playing time is an issue with recruits. From the 2014 class, guys like Booker and Blackmon saw an immediate path to playing time at UK and Indiana. When they committed, no one had any idea Stauskas would blow up last year and leave early. Similarly, even for 2015, a kid like Jalen Brunson no doubt saw Walton as an entrenched starter.

In any event, 2016 is a huge year to start replenishing star power. Playing time will be available, and the team already has plenty of role players (Robinson, Dawkins, MAAR). At this rate, the core group of Walton, Chatman and Irvin will all still be here, but we need that next stud PG, that next stud two guard, and a wing scorer (hopefully Towns) to add to Teske.

In some respects, getting Winston (or a Ramsey or Goodin) might actually be best for the long term success of the program, as Thornton is probably a one and done guy.

In short, I can live with the misses in 2014 and 2015 as long as we bring in some stars in 2016.

Agree with a lot of what you say, actually. PT is certainly a factor (PLEASE let Brown see this). Patience…it’s a difficult concept for me to grasp personally. I think I’d have more of it if the trajectory was better, but as 93 said, the fact that our recruiting seems to be declining by the day, is truly baffling given the on court results the past 2 years…

If I’ve been guilty of saying we don’t have any talent, which I don’t think I’ve said, that is incorrect…we just don’t have enough talent to be a really good team right now, and honestly, assuming the roster is the same next year minus Caris, I don’t think it’s good enough next year either.

We have what I call, really good supplemental recruits, guys that are really good given a defined, limited role…but we don’t have the kind of guys that you just roll out at an open gym and have the ability to dominate. Those guys need to be in certain spots and certain times in order to be effective, in other words they are what I call “dependent” players, guys that can’t just ball out regardless of the competition or system. We need a few more of those types of guys, that just have superior ability irrelevant of coaching/development/system.

On the bright side, Teske is a great start…really has the ability to impact the game without scoring. He’ll probably take a RS year to beef up, because he’s a poor rebounder right now due to a total lack of strength. Don’t think he’ll ever be a guy that is a true offensive threat on the block, but could see him averaging 10-12 points a game as a junior/senior out of the pick and pop game and lobs.

Need to add 1 dynamic player in that class…a Brown, Langord, DT that makes an instant impact.

DT unlikely to reclassify to 15, still no mention of a UM visit…don’t think this is trending good. New film on DT below from the Tarkanian classic. We need an elite PG desperately in the 16 class