Also, I would fully expect a similar thread could be made about Eric Davis with the commitment of Robinson, as he and Coleman were basically both offered the same spot.
The thought of Robinson as a primary creator makes me cringe.
What is comical is the people who think they can evaluate and project talent better than coaches who hang banners. It is ok to cock an eyebrow and wonder what they see or project, but to basically call them dumb when they have proven they know what they are doing is hilarious. I will take your side of the argument when you attach a link to the photos of the banners you have hung.
C will fill another SG spot with an elite in '16 IMO.
Which was said in 2014 and 2015. I hope you are right.
Part of me feels that the staff is feeling themselves too much with the player development motif.
What is comical is the people who think they can evaluate and project talent better than coaches who hang banners. It is ok to cock an eyebrow and wonder what they see or project, but to basically call them dumb when they have proven they know what they are doing is hilarious. I will take your side of the argument when you attach a link to the photos of the banners you have hung.
Many a coach have had a 5 year span of success and dropped of a cliff. Success is not linear and has to be sustained.
What is comical is the people who think they can evaluate and project talent better than coaches who hang banners. It is ok to cock an eyebrow and wonder what they see or project, but to basically call them dumb when they have proven they know what they are doing is hilarious. I will take your side of the argument when you attach a link to the photos of the banners you have hung.
C’mon man, stop it. I can understand being deferential but this is ridiculous. Nobody, and I mean nobody, the staff included, thinks Duncan Robinson, is or will be a better player than Jalen Coleman. If you want to label me as “basically calling the staff dumb” because of that opinion, then I guess im guilty because in my opinion, at this point in time, that was a very dumb decision. Banners don’t mean that dumb decisions aren’t made. If we’re judging this move independently of PAST success and PAST failures, it appears to be a dumb move, plain and simple.
Coleman wasn’t coming here anyway, rumor was ND, so the coaches finally ended it. Not the end of the world. Sure they could have kept pursuing, but I have to assume they saw the writing on the wall.
What’s really comical is that some people are actually attempting to justify this move. I will say this though, doesn’t seem to be near the volume of “don’t question the staff because they’ve won in the past” type of posts as usual. I think those theorists are even concerned at this point.
Coleman wasn't coming here anyway, rumor was ND, so the coaches finally ended it. Not the end of the world. Sure they could have kept pursuing, but I have to assume they saw the writing on the wall.
Rumor was Chatman to UA. You don’t stop pursuing until the end. You win some and you lose some but you don’t quit or settle. I would rather bank it then take a guy with a max potential as a role player.
I have seen this story before. Give it a few months and realize once again that coach and staff know what they are doing. I really like Robinson’s game, albeit I do hope for someone with Coleman’s skill set. More of a creator is needed if you ask me. Maybe the more the staff sees of MAAR they may think he will be ready to fly as a sophomore.
As much as some of you want to “think objectively” and “success in the past doesn’t equal success in the future”, no one knows what the staff is seeing from the freshmen and maybe they just simply got tired of lingering on with Coleman who was being recruited for 3 years and is announcing official visits to all these other schools now. They want players who will run through the doors. Also, we all try to gauge skills from highlight videos and do not have near the exposure to extended tape as well as live observation these coaches have. I know everyone is refuting you have to trust Coach B, and everyone is entitled to their own opinion, BUT in my own opinion you kinda have to trust Coach B and staff with their track record.
Dylan - can we let Ben back just for tonight? Would love to see his take on this…just some comic relief to lighten up the mood
Everybody still on board with the Duncan commit now? You can take me off that train. Really shaking my head at this one. How do you sacrifice Jalen Coleman for Duncan Robinson? I know there will be many that say it was trending in the wrong direction with Coleman, but so what, you hold out for a guy like that, especially if the alternative is Robinson. I really have to wonder what the staff was thinking. No way can this be justified with the "we wanted Robinson" theory.The coaches have said, from Day 1, that they want players who want to play for Michigan. Coleman visited multiple times and had all the opportunity in the world to commit. Yet he didn’t. That’s his loss. Beilein has built a formidable program and if Coleman wants to pass that up for a second tier team like Illinois or Notre Dame, that’s his prerogative. We’ll win without him.
Sure, DRobinson may end up being a step down from Coleman as an individual player. But basketball is a team sport, and if UM basketball over the past 5 years hasn’t beaten that into fans’ heads, I don’t know what will. You don’t need the best individual collection of individual talent - although UM will still have plenty - you need the best team. And if the coaches think Robinson will fit into that team concept better than Coleman, I believe them.
So, because a kid did not commit before his senior year even started or he had taken any official visits it is time to write him off? Recruiting is a business where you sometimes have to fight to the end even if the odds don’t look good. How many people thought we would get Chatman, but the coaches didn’t give up on that one.
Nothing to do with stars for me, it's about talent. It is very evident from the film that Robinson is nowhere near as talented as Coleman, who is 2-3 years younger as well. You simply don't sacrifice A talent of Coleman's caliber for the likes of a player that is going to be 7-8th man off the bench. That is what you call baffling.
I don’t buy the age argument, some peak early and some develop late. The coaches might misjudge in this case but they must have their reasons.
What's really comical is that some people are actually attempting to justify this move. I will say this though, doesn't seem to be near the volume of "don't question the staff because they've won in the past" type of posts as usual. I think those theorists are even concerned at this point.
Matt, I understand you’re very frustrated at this move, and you have valid reason to be. However, to me it doesn’t seem fair to call out the “Beilein defenders” just to rub their noses in this.
I have seen this story before. Give it a few months and realize once again that coach and staff know what they are doing. I really like Robinson's game, albeit I do hope for someone with Coleman's skill set. More of a creator is needed if you ask me. Maybe the more the staff sees of MAAR they may think he will be ready to fly as a sophomore.As much as some of you want to “think objectively” and “success in the past doesn’t equal success in the future”, no one knows what the staff is seeing from the freshmen and maybe they just simply got tired of lingering on with Coleman who was being recruited for 3 years and is announcing official visits to all these other schools now. They want players who will run through the doors. Also, we all try to gauge skills from highlight videos and do not have near the exposure to extended tape as well as live observation these coaches have. I know everyone is refuting you have to trust Coach B, and everyone is entitled to their own opinion, BUT in my own opinion you kinda have to trust Coach B and staff with their track record.
So if we fail to make the tourney is JB no longer to be trusted? I think that is just as extreme as this “total deference” some people give JB. That’s why evaluation of each decision should be made on the independent variable (ie recruiting, substitution patterns, style of play, etc) rather than the dependent variable (ie wins and losses). Never evaluate on the dependent variable, that is a staple of any test/evaluation. It’s good to enjoy where we’ve been, but it would be short sighted to let that compel us to approval or disapproval of individual moves.
Honestly, I just have to laugh at most of this. As far as I know, none of the “experts” on this board when it comes to talent evaluation have ever coached a college game in their lives, while John Beilein was just named by ESPN as the 9th best college coach in the country. But I’m sure all the critics are far better at evaluating talent than our coaching staff, especially based on very limited video highlights of each player, as compared to the coaching staff having the chance to watch these guys play several full length games.
Jalen Coleman is no sure thing. In fact, his game looks quite similar to Alex Legion’s to me. How did Alex Legion turn out? I do generally like Coleman on film, and I wish he had committed awhile ago, but obviously he didn’t. If we’ve decided to move on, so be it.
I highly doubt we stop recruiting 2015 kids completely, and I give us a better shot with Dozier than many do.
Either way, to me this staff has proven two things: (1) they are very good talent evaluators; and (2) they know how to win. If they offer a Duncan Robinson, I’m confident it’s because they believe he’s a good player. And their judgment is usually quite good. In fact, I’d challenge anyone to find a coaching staff that has been as successful as ours the past couple years while playing within the rules. There aren’t many, if any.
At the very least, take a step back and let’s see how things work out, as opposed to pretending to know for sure how good a given player will be before he even steps on the court for us.
1 Like
What's really comical is that some people are actually attempting to justify this move. I will say this though, doesn't seem to be near the volume of "don't question the staff because they've won in the past" type of posts as usual. I think those theorists are even concerned at this point.Matt, I understand you’re very frustrated at this move, and you have valid reason to be. However, to me it doesn’t seem fair to call out the “Beilein defenders” just to rub their noses in this.
My question is this - if my “calling out isn’t fair”, then what do you label everyone that called me out over my assessment of Wilson?
Truth is that recruiting has been a huge concern for the past 2 years and everyone claims we’re on an upward trajectory, and if im being honest, I can’t find any reason to believe that at this very moment. I can’t see us reaching the Elite 8 this year or next with the current roster. Our system is very perimeter oriented an dependent on guys that can create and distribute off PnR. After this year, we will literally have ONE player on the roster who has proven successful in those situations.
Recruiting needs to improve, and that is the honest truth
Honestly, I just have to laugh at most of this. As far as I know, none of the "experts" on this board when it comes to talent evaluation have ever coached a college game in their lives
And you are employing an “Appeal to authority” logical fallacy
John Beilein was just named by ESPN as the 9th best college coach in the country.
For a 5 year span…not a 20 year span like a Coach K. A huge distinction.
What's really comical is that some people are actually attempting to justify this move. I will say this though, doesn't seem to be near the volume of "don't question the staff because they've won in the past" type of posts as usual. I think those theorists are even concerned at this point.Matt, I understand you’re very frustrated at this move, and you have valid reason to be. However, to me it doesn’t seem fair to call out the “Beilein defenders” just to rub their noses in this.
My question is this - if my “calling out isn’t fair”, then what do you label everyone that called me out over my assessment of Wilson?
I wanted to say the same thing to them about calling you out (on the forum and the blog), but I frequently try to refrain from making too many posts because usually my thoughts aren’t as well relayed to comments as I conceive them. In general, I have found people on either side of any argument dislike “I told you so” posts, and don’t respond well to them, so I don’t see a point in adding fuel to a fire.