What many of you call reasonable, really means delusionally biased. Notice no one argued against Wolverine3 saying an absolute statement like "And there is no way MAAR has more long term potential then AD" ... but somewhere along the line Dawkins became this 5* future Kobe Bryant player on this board.
Its all see through and shameful.
We’ve seen a few minutes of practice drills and scrimmage. There’s not much basis to project a player’s entire Michigan career with the kind of absolutism that a few have tried to do here. I limited my brief comments to a few positives I saw in a few players, e.g. Irvin’s increased athleticism. If people want to say MAAR will be one of the best guards in the B1G or Dawkins will have a much better career than MAAR, that’s their option. But I think that there’s precious little to go on with a lot of these kids, particularly the freshmen, especially when you look back at the tremendous strides some of our past players have made in the first year or two. Imo, that is a reasonable stance, not shameful in the least. Delusion is in the eye of the beholder.
Players don’t generally get good at ballhandling with age.
Are you saying that Dawkins cannot improve his handle;
Yes, I am saying just that.
I guess I asked and you answered, but anyone willing to work can improve aspects of his game, assuming a reasonable level of natural ability. The rest of my post addressed how good his handle has to be to play 3. I think he can progress to that point. You don’t. Proof will be in the pudding.
On the bright side: The practices are going to be a lot easier when John Belein is informed that it is a waste of time to train his players to be better dribblers and jumpers.
What many of you call reasonable, really means delusionally biased. Notice no one argued against Wolverine3 saying an absolute statement like "And there is no way MAAR has more long term potential then AD" ... but somewhere along the line Dawkins became this 5* future Kobe Bryant player on this board.
Its all see through and shameful.
We’ve seen a few minutes of practice drills and scrimmage. There’s not much basis to project a player’s entire Michigan career with the kind of absolutism that a few have tried to do here. I limited my brief comments to a few positives I saw in a few players, e.g. Irvin’s increased athleticism. If people want to say MAAR will be one of the best guards in the B1G or Dawkins will have a much better career than MAAR, that’s their option. But I think that there’s precious little to go on with a lot of these kids, particularly the freshmen, especially when you look back at the tremendous strides some of our past players have made in the first year or two. Imo, that is a reasonable stance, not shameful in the least. Delusion is in the eye of the beholder.
Players don’t generally get good at ballhandling with age.
Are you saying that Dawkins cannot improve his handle;
Yes, I am saying just that.
I guess I asked and you answered, but anyone willing to work can improve aspects of his game, assuming a reasonable level of natural ability. The rest of my post addressed how good his handle has to be to play 3. I think he can progress to that point. You don’t. Proof will be in the pudding.
To play the 3? Sure. To be a drive and kick, PnR player? No. Which is what my post addressed.
On the bright side: The practices are going to be a lot easier when John Belein is informed that it is a waste of time to train his players to be better dribblers and jumpers.
I guess that that’s what baffles me. Beilein’s calling card is player development, yet some see recruits and first year guys as static, not likely to improve skill levels.
On the bright side: The practices are going to be a lot easier when John Belein is informed that it is a waste of time to train his players to be better dribblers and jumpers.
I guess that that’s what baffles me. Beilein’s calling card is player development, yet some see recruits and first year guys as static, not likely to improve skill levels.
List a player JB turned into an above average ballhandler?
On the bright side: The practices are going to be a lot easier when John Belein is informed that it is a waste of time to train his players to be better dribblers and jumpers.
I guess that that’s what baffles me. Beilein’s calling card is player development, yet some see recruits and first year guys as static, not likely to improve skill levels.
List a player JB turned into an above average ballhandler?
I’d say Novak, DMo, THJ and Nik all improved a lot in the ball handling realm. Average, above average, is very subjective. But DMo went from average to well above average between frosh and soph years. As a frosh, he averaged an assist every 11 minutes on the floor. As a soph, 1 every 5 minutes. His turnover numbers were also down. Novak went from a guy without much ball skill to a guy with as good handle who could take the ball to the hoop. As a frosh, THJ was a turnover waiting to happen when he put the ball on the floor. By the time he left, he was averaging 2.5 assists per game from the 2 spot and was good enough to get drafted in the first round and make the all rookie team. Nik always had ball skills, as his high school video of his ball handling drills showed. But the work he did last summer to improve and further develop his floor game established him at another level - lottery pick.
On the bright side: The practices are going to be a lot easier when John Belein is informed that it is a waste of time to train his players to be better dribblers and jumpers.
I guess that that’s what baffles me. Beilein’s calling card is player development, yet some see recruits and first year guys as static, not likely to improve skill levels.
List a player JB turned into an above average ballhandler?
I’d say Novak, DMo, THJ and Nik all improved a lot in the ball handling realm.
I guess this is a question of degree of improvement for you, Guestavo. I will partially agree: If you want to be a point guard in college you had better have natural ability and a lot of time spent working on your ball handling by age 10. With hard work you can make improvements in college. Without hard work an already very good ball handler like Burke will not show any signs of improvement from year one to year two. To me, Burke showed noticeable signs of improvement and that is a testament to Burke’s work ethic. To me, the fact that I see noticeable signs of improvement in terms of ballhandling amongst many players under JB is a testament to their training and/or ability to identify very,very hard working players.
sane: We’re not talking about how often a player gets assists, that’s passing. We’re talking about actual ballhandling. I can’t think of 1 player who has improved their ballhandling enough that it had a major effect on their overall ability.
Well, as a freshman, I think there’s zero chance we could have used Hardaway as a press breaker against VCU. But he certainly did it in the tourney last year. But, don’t let that example get in the way of a good narrative about how no one can ever improve their dribbling skills.
Ohhhh. Weird. I think people usually lump passing and dribbling under the term “ball handling” but ok…If, as you say, you are looking for improvements in dribbling that have a major effect on players overall ability then that implies that dribbling can effect different facets of a players game. Why in the world,then,would you try to exclude an improved assist rate as one of the pieces of evidence that a player has improved his ball handling?
I’d say Novak, DMo, THJ and Nik all improved a lot in the ball handling realm.
lol ok
^^^^ Comments like this is why this board can be really difficult to read. Folks have differing opinions and frames of reference…but I don’t get the need to ‘lol’ someone’s post. I guess you are the expert and anyone who disagrees with you should be laughed at.
I am sorry I did not have a chance to read your post referencing Vogrich. I see it now. It was purely coincidental that I was also talking about Vogrich and defense. My point, meant for Guestavo, was simply that I believe our team will be good regardless of how good Robinson will turn out to be. Similarly, our recent final four team’s success was not dependant upon every recruit meeting the staff’s expectations they had of them when they were originally recruited. In other words, I am excited about the players we have and I believe if time proves that one of the new recruits is not as good as the staff expected we will be ok because all 12 are not going to play major minutes anyway…You do bring up a good point though regarding the dissing of players. I am more comfortable calling it like I see it after I have seen it–and after the boys graduate and are men. I am less comfortable making wild and negative speculations about someone who is coming out of high school. I wish all of these young players the best of luck. I really believe they can reach their full potential here and I really believe they were recruited for good reasons. Work hard Freshman because anything is possible!
Amen to just about every single sentiment relayed here. Clever, succinct, positive, thoughtful, non-dismissive. A breath of fresh air. I swear this board gets way to tense sometimes. I usually like to participate on message boards I’m a member of, but I feel like a 12 year old trying to call next on a college level pick-up court here sometimes. Not because the content can be a bit over my head (I confess, some of it can be), but because of the hostile, “I’m the only one who is right” attitude some posters here carry. A little tact never hurt anybody. What’s wrong with talking to others the way you would want to be addressed?
Anyways I’ll go. As for players who improved ball handling under Coach B (and more specifically Coach Vall), Darius Morris is the first, most obvious choice. Second and less obvious (nobody mentioned him at all so I fear somebody will hit me with the ol’ “lol”…) is Stu Douglass. I seem to remember us being STARVED for a primary ball handler the year after Lee and Merritt left (do either of them count as improved ball handling or am I missing some veiled caveat?). A lack of a ball handler is what kept us from being a tournament team. We were terrible. I remember MISSING CJ Lee. Who would have thought I would be saying that to myself two years earlier? Well the year following the down year, Morris returned for his sophomore campaign and was an obviously improved ball handler. I believe “the Butterfly” was the lame nickname they were trying to push on him on the BTN broadcasts. Certainly wasn’t because of his jump shot! And back to my Stu contention, he backed up DMo that year, logging real minutes as our primary ball handler…EFFECTIVELY. To a level that he proved incapable of achieving the year before. I would say that qualifies as improved ball handling. I don’t know a damn thing about his advanced analytics or KenPom ratings. I’m only going by my eye test and my admittedly faulty memory.
I'd say Novak, DMo, THJ and Nik all improved a lot in the ball handling realm.
lol ok
^^^^ Comments like this is why this board can be really difficult to read. Folks have differing opinions and frames of reference…but I don’t get the need to ‘lol’ someone’s post. I guess you are the expert and anyone who disagrees with you should be laughed at.
There are a couple of “experts” like this. It is why I hardly visit anymore since they have been back.
I agree…the board is dominated by a few who know everything! Like they would know or could even measure the degree to which someone can improve their handle! Its like saying your increase in vertical jump is not that important. With that said JB does what he does…keeps winning!
sane: We're not talking about how often a player gets assists, that's passing. We're talking about actual ballhandling. I can't think of 1 player who has improved their ballhandling enough that it had a major effect on their overall ability.
Presumably, you have to handle the ball very well to get 7 assists per game as DMo did as a soph- no? What statistical measure would you use? I assume that you watched DMo during his two years here. Putting aside stats, are you saying that, based on your observation of him, he did not greatly improve his ball handling from year one to year two? I saw every game, and I believe he did. You and guestavo are free to disagree.
Still haven’t seen Dawkins really shoot off the dribble with success either. Seems to be more of a spot up shooter at this point. Really needs to play within his role. Has the athletecism to defend quick wings which may be his most important function once Caris leaves. Maybe they can play him in the GR3 role on offence and have him guard quicker wings that Zak or Kam can’t defend. I don’t really like him as a 3 on offence myself either, even with significant improvement.
sane: We're not talking about how often a player gets assists, that's passing. We're talking about actual ballhandling. I can't think of 1 player who has improved their ballhandling enough that it had a major effect on their overall ability.
Presumably, you have to handle the ball very well to get 7 assists per game as DMo did as a soph- no? What statistical measure would you use? I assume that you watched DMo during his two years here. Putting aside stats, are you saying that, based on your observation of him, he did not greatly improve his ball handling from year one to year two? I saw every game, and I believe he did. You and guestavo are free to disagree.
Have to disagree on this one. Wilt Chamberlain averaged 8 assists per game in 2 seasons during his NBA tenure. Would you say Wilt had a good handle? Ball handling and passing are mutually exclusive. Jamal Crawford has a great handle but he’s not the greatest passer in the world to make a contemporary example. Joakim Noah and Pau Gasol are exceptional passers, but they certainly can’t handle the ball