I put Robinson in with the 6 unproven guys with potential. I hope he does well but there are a few red flags. If you have seen Division 3 defenses you will notice there is a lot more time/ space to get your shot off. I imagine Stauskas in that environment and I think it would be almost like watching him drain 3's in his back yard. Robinson only shot 45% against that slow and short defense. Red flag.
I’m not saying Robinson will be our best shooter, but just to rebut your argument a bit…he also did that as a freshman and is now older and stronger/quicker following a year at Camp Sanderson, so hopefully those offset the jump in level of competition to some degree.
Some interesting thoughts in this thread and I am actually glad to see I am not alone on some of my thoughts on the rotation and players. I was wondering if I would be deemed insane for what I have been thinking.
Dating back to last year I have been huge on Dawkins and Maar. I think its clear Dawkins is going to start and I still believe he is going to be very good and go to the NBA at some point. Now as far as Maar goes… based on his play last year and what I saw in the scrimmage it just lends me to believe my eyes are not fooling me. I get the logic of where is he going to play? Over who? I think that myself at times but I have come to this conclusion. I think he may be one of the five best players on the team. He sure is if were talking two way. Decent shooter last year and he showed that hes improving in that scrimmage and is good to knock down open looks all day. He provides two things this team desepartely needs that they can’t get out of spike for instance. (I love spike and he played great hurt last year, so it pains me to say this.) He is an above average defender and he is one of only three or four guys who at this point has shown can go to the rack. He just also has it, whatever “it” is. I was not even surprised he helped lead the maize to the win. Hes a scrappy gamer and a winner.
So when I look at the rotation I am starting to believe as others have pointed out that he may deserve the nod as the first guard behind walton and levert in the best interest of the team. There will still be room for spike as he is a leader and go off at any second. I see getting MAAR in there at all costs as a must and it will make this team far more dangerous.
I could also see MAAR getting time at the expense of Irvin. Although Irvin really picked it up late in the year on his post d,rebounding, and creating to the rack I still wonder if we would not be better served with some of his minutes going to MAAR and moving dawkins to the four, lever to the three. Offensively I actually think Dawkins makes a better number two to levert than Irvin does as Irvin is streaky and dawkins showed promise late in the year at more then just threes. I could see him developing a nice mid range game off the curl or even off the pick and roll much like stauskas developed after being just a three point shooter. Also coming off the back injury you just never know. Hopefully I am wrong though and Irvin continues to improve to possibly get drafted some day as then obviously we’d have a ridiculous wealth of talent on the wings.
This was really long and I don’t blame any of you if you didn’t read it. I am really excited especially after that video and I was happy to see some of you thinking the same things I am. Not a knock on spike or irvin as I said. I still think all these guys will see time. I just am wondering if thats not the right move/moves.
I could also see MAAR getting time at the expense of Irvin. Although Irvin really picked it up late in the year on his post d,rebounding, and creating to the rack I still wonder if we would not be better served with some of his minutes going to MAAR and moving dawkins to the four, lever to the three. Offensively I actually think Dawkins makes a better number two to levert than Irvin does as Irvin is streaky and dawkins showed promise late in the year at more then just threes. I could see him developing a nice mid range game off the curl or even off the pick and roll much like stauskas developed after being just a three point shooter. Also coming off the back injury you just never know. Hopefully I am wrong though and Irvin continues to improve to possibly get drafted some day as then obviously we'd have a ridiculous wealth of talent on the wings.
It’s an interesting thought…I’d like to see MAAR get spot minutes but we do have a jam of good wing players. I think Irvin stands out because of his all-around abilities and will be interested to see how he improves this year.
Freshman year he was streaky coming off the bench.
Sophomore year he had to shoulder a heavy load. (scored 17+ points in 10 games)
Junior year? I think he has the potential to be our leading scorer. But who knows who gets the shots with so many guys that can fill it up.
It’s a good problem to have a jam of wings but I’d like to see some guys separate themselves from the competition. I think Irvin will be one of those guys.
I see where you are coming from sly boogie.As crazy as it might sound. I think our star guards (Walton and Levert) have quite a few things they could learn from their probable backups in MAAR and Spike. They are confident gamers who go into battle! MAAR’s aggression needs to be either emulated or he needs to be on the court.
I am not sure I would give Spikes minutes to MAAR. I like them both. I am saying I think that Walton and Levert need to play the right way. If they don’t, especially Levert, then the value of our stars is not much more than our backups. I hope they play the right way, with the right attitude, as part of a team. Walton has always done that although I think he should be more aggressive in half court situations, but I have not always agreed with Leverts approach in some games.
@gtfofmycourt, I reject the notion that LeVert and Walton aren’t “confident gamers who go into battle”.
Both those guys epitomize guys willing to do whatever it takes to win. I say this with no malice toward Spike and MAAR. it’s just the notion that LeVert and Walton somehow lack intestinal fortitude I find fallacious
I in no way mean to diminish any our players work ethic and desire for training. They are all impressive. I do think there are sometimes mental blocks players need to breakthrough because they have habituated themselves to believe they are something they are not. In games, at times, I think Levert forgets he is not a skinny kid anymore. I think it explains his tendency to settle for mid-range jumpers and fadeaways. He is not settling because of an ethical failing or selfishness. He forgets who he is: 6’8" and strong. It is all part of his growth process…
Walton tends to unnecessarily defer in the half court–but that may have been due to turf toe injury…I love both players and I think our backups will help them reach their fullest potential.
In fairness, without taking anything away from them, I think there is some legitimate room for improvement in (1) LeVert’s decision-making (tendency to over-dribble, put up contested circus shots, miss open roll-men, get stuck in the lane, and generally play “hero ball”) and (2) Walton’s aggressiveness in attacking the rim. However, it is entirely possible that the two guards have addressed these issues during the off-season.
I don’t think GTF is really disputing their talent, confidence, and leadership. He’s noting that Spike and MAAR bring certain qualities that complement the things that LeVert and Walton do very well – and that competition and adaptability rather than guaranteed roles/minutes may be key in improving the team’s overall performance on the court.
I do not think it is a bad thing to challenge our players to find “it” in themselves. Morris, Novak, Burke and Stauskas are not champions because of physical attributes alone.
Man, I couldn’t disagree more on those takes about LeVert (ie. playing “hero ball”). Early in the season:
MAAR and Dawkins weren’t part of the rotation.
Donnal was bad and Doyle was incredibly raw.
Walton was playing injured.
Irvin was not playing well at all.
LeVert did what he had to do with the hand that he was dealt last season. You can call it “hero ball”, but I’ll call it for what it was: having an underwhelming/underachieving supporting cast.
If LeVert deferred to his underwhelming teammates more often when the supporting cast was bad, you guys would probably be here complaining about LeVert not putting the team on his back, having the “it” factor, or stepping up and being “the guy”.
The point is, LeVert doesn’t need to put the team on his back this year, nor should he. He will be surrounded by guys with some experience who can knock down shots and get in the lane, and the team shouldn’t lose too much momentum when he takes a rest. We will see how the team leverages its newfound depth starting tonight.
The point is, LeVert doesn't need to put the team on his back this year, nor should he. He will be surrounded by guys with some experience who can knock down shots and get in the lane, and the team shouldn't lose too much momentum when he takes a rest. We will see how the team leverages its newfound depth starting tonight.
And if that’s what was being said, I wouldn’t have felt the need to reply. Criticizing LeVert’s approach to the game (as gtfo did) and him trying to do too much (as you did) last year is just silly to me. It’s as if you forget how bad the rest of the team was in the first half of last season. I cringe to think of how much worse it would have been had LeVert not played “hero ball”.
I am glad you are so confident that – with a great supporting cast on his wings – we won’t see any contested, off-balance, triple-pump moves in the lane. I hope you are right. Because if we see a guy who only takes efficient shots, possesses elite vision, and distributes effectively, then Maryland had better watch out. But, in the off chance that we don’t see that guy, I am fine with MAAR getting 10-12 minutes off the bench. Not sure why that is so contentious.
What are the thoughts on Walton and his ability to lead the team from the PG position? Good frosh season but played poorly in the tournament. Struggled last year with his shot and injury, poor assist to turnover ratio. Thus far Walton 163 assists to 91 turnovers not even a 2-1 assist/turnover ratio. Can Michigan survive and will Beilein be satisfied if that’s what Michigan gets out of him?
I am glad you are so confident that -- with a great supporting cast on his wings -- we won't see any contested, off-balance, triple-pump moves in the lane. I hope you are right. Because if we see a guy who only takes efficient shots, possesses elite vision, and distributes effectively, then Maryland had better watch out. But, in the off chance that we don't see that guy, I am fine with MAAR getting 10-12 minutes off the bench. Not sure why that is so contentious.
I think it’s important MAAR gets good minutes I don’t think there is any conversation where someone says he isn’t the best perimeter defender Michigan has. Maybe Wilson starts at the 4 and you won’t have to see a starting lineup of Walton-Levert-Dawkins-Irvin-Doyle which is deficient defensively. Maybe you can get good minutes and production with a 2nd unit of Maar-Albrecht-Robinson-Irvin-Donnall/Chatman
I don’t know Hail, Was the situation Levert was in at the beginning of the season with a relatively healthy team against many easy teams worse than, say the situation MAAR and Spike were in at the end of the bigten schedule without Levert and Walton? I am not trying to put Levert down in anyway whatsoever. Like all players there are weaknesses in his game. I do think he tried to do too much last season but I wouldn’t attribute that to him being a bad player or a bad teamate. I will take a wait and see approach. I hope everyone has fun at tonight’s game!
I am glad you are so confident that -- with a great supporting cast on his wings -- we won't see any contested, off-balance, triple-pump moves in the lane. I hope you are right. Because if we see a guy who only takes efficient shots, possesses elite vision, and distributes effectively, then Maryland had better watch out. But, in the off chance that we don't see that guy, I am fine with MAAR getting 10-12 minutes off the bench. Not sure why that is so contentious.
What’s with the strawmen and hyperboles? There is no need for intellectual dishonesty in this discussion.
I never said that we won’t see “any” contested, off-balance, triple-pump moves in the lane.
I never said that LeVert will “only” take efficient shots.
I never objected to the idea of MAAR playing 10-12 mpg off the bench.
I really don’t see the need to use those strawman statements in this discussion. Literally the only stance I’ve taken thus far is that I think it’s silly to criticize LeVert’s play or decision-making last year based on the circumstances.