Moritz Wagner Likely to Play in College, Reportedly Considering (Favoring?) Michigan


#81

All I know is if it is true that this kid loves the game, has a passion for winning, is tough and willing to make the sacrifices to be a good player I want him on the roster.

  • I was really expecting far more out of Donnal after his redshirt year and it did not happen, is there still a chance that he could toughen up absolutely but his mannerisms tell me that may be stretch.
  • Doyle he seems to natural gravitate to the physicality of the BIG but his conditioning or lack of it drives me nuts.
  • Wilson… well we really do not have any idea what we have there yet.

#82

I think we all agree that Michigan needs to add to its roster for next year after the results this season.

-Is anyone really happy with the front court this year? Doyle showed promise early, but has struggled. Donnal has struggled. Zak Irvin and Aubrey Dawkins are not meant to play the four. Kam Chatman has struggled. DJ Wilson is an x-factor but hard to count on. Imagine this year’s roster next year without Max. Wagner for four years seems like an obvious upgrade over one more year of Max.

-If LeVert leaves, I think Michigan has to add a guard as well. I don’t think Wagner affects that decision. If LeVert comes back, you have DW, Spike, LeVert, MAAR at the backcourt and Irvin, Chatman, Dawkins and Robinson as guys that probably can play the 3, a small four or slide to the two. That seems to be sufficient, but I think you need more of an off guard if you can find one.

-I get that it doesn’t look like there are a lot of scholarships for 2016, but that’s a problem you just deal with when you get there.


#83
Lets not start this into an off-topic argument about Corey Sanders in a discussion about Moe Wagner. Kid was never going to be a fit at U-M for various reasons -- and never even sent them his transcripts or made a visit. I think Michigan needs a PG (and yes he is a guy that needs to dominate the ball) much better than him in 2016.

The potential I see in Wagner is something maybe like a Jarrod Uthoff type. Tall, not real athletic, decent face up game. Could be a useful player. In terms of late additions, seems like a decent fit.

Also there may or may not be attrition and it’s silly to hypothesize, but Beilein flew across the world to watch him play in November – so this isn’t all driven by attrition.

Seriously man, stop it with the good fit. How the heck is he a good fit? He’s another catch and shoot player…you yourself have admitted that adding him presents issues because of the redundancy. Dawkins, Donnal, Wilson, Wagner, Robinson, and even Irvin and Chatman to a certain extent. That’s 5-6 guys on a single roster that stand in a corner.

I think Wagner can be a decent supplemental piece if we’re looking at him independent of the roster composition, but please, let’s not act as if we don’t have more pressing needs and that he is going to significantly improve the team next year. He’s taking a roster spot that would be MUCH better served by a creating guard, and we all know it.

You hit the nail on the head - JB actually flew halfway across the world to pursue a one dimensional player, and it doesn’t even surprise me. And that’s the sad part

You think wilson is going to be a stand in the corner type guy? I don’t really picture that or see that when I watched him/seen highlights of him. I see him being more aggressive and trying to get to the rim more than the other guys. I remember earlier this year he passed on a fairly open three to go to the rack (he got blocked pretty badly/I think it was the nova game) I wasn’t mad at him though cause I was thinking “good at least he was going to try and posterize someone.” maybe I gotta look back again at more highlights.


#84

I look at our roster if Levert leaves, and we would most likely be one the slowest teams in college basketball. We desperately need some backcourt speed and ball handling.

I get it that we may not be happy with the play of our bigs, but is Wagner any different? He’s not a guy that is going to give you any scoring on the block, and only shoots 30% from 3. On film, he looks like a more fluid version of DJ with less ball handling. Just please give me a few guys that have the ability to take a defender one on one , get a clean look, and either finish at the rim or dump it off to a big. Really wondering what the hell the staff is thinking at this point.

We all said 16 was pretty much make or break for recruiting…that time is approaching fast.


#85

Donnal also isn’t a ‘stand in the corner guy’, but he is a guy that just needs to get better quickly. Also a guy that Wagner could be an upgrade over.

FWIW, Beilein described Wilson this week as a guy that they still think can ‘play three positions’. https://twitter.com/detnewsRodBeard/status/573924427135647746


#86
Donnal also isn't a 'stand in the corner guy', but he is a guy that just needs to get better quickly. Also a guy that Wagner could be an upgrade over.

FWIW, Beilein described Wilson this week as a guy that they still think can ‘play three positions’. https://twitter.com/detnewsRodBeard/status/573924427135647746

He may not literally stand in a corner but the point is all that he can do is a catch and shoot. 5-7 players in that role is just far too many and you know that as well.


#87

I don’t think we will be seeing Donnal at the four outside of emergencies. Wilson…I think he’s set for the 5 for now. So that’s Dawkins, Irvin, Chatman, Robinson, possibly Wagner and possibly Wilson “standing in a corner.” As we know, the 3-4 spots in JB’s offense can be pretty interchangeable. So that’s 5-6 guys for two spots. Not 5-6 guys for one. The only concern I have with Wagner re: fit are on defense. But we all know JB sacrifices that end of the floor for offense and shooting. And I don’t think JB is happy with the shooting available on this squad and I see some potential in Wagner’s stroke.

I don’t think Wagner and a creator are mutually exclusive. Especially since we have the potential of two more scholarships if Hatch is put on medical hardship or Caris leaves or someone transfers out (which is a distinct possibility). I think most of us agree we really need someone who can create for the future. If Caris comes back though (which is a possibility), there’s not going to be much PT for a creator as we’ll have Caris, Walton, Spike and MAAR handling the ball. Obviously there’s a big need after that with two of those guys being seniors. I don’t know the recruiting scene enough to know who is available as a creator for the 15 class other than the top guys. But if JB get’s someone at MAAR’s level, or slightly below, and he RS, then it’s fine as long as we get another creator in the 16 class.

JMHO


#88
Lets not start this into an off-topic argument about Corey Sanders in a discussion about Moe Wagner. Kid was never going to be a fit at U-M for various reasons -- and never even sent them his transcripts or made a visit. I think Michigan needs a PG (and yes he is a guy that needs to dominate the ball) much better than him in 2016.

The potential I see in Wagner is something maybe like a Jarrod Uthoff type. Tall, not real athletic, decent face up game. Could be a useful player. In terms of late additions, seems like a decent fit.

Also there may or may not be attrition and it’s silly to hypothesize, but Beilein flew across the world to watch him play in November – so this isn’t all driven by attrition.

Seriously man, stop it with the good fit. How the heck is he a good fit? He’s another catch and shoot player…you yourself have admitted that adding him presents issues because of the redundancy. Dawkins, Donnal, Wilson, Wagner, Robinson, and even Irvin and Chatman to a certain extent. That’s 5-6 guys on a single roster that stand in a corner.

I think Wagner can be a decent supplemental piece if we’re looking at him independent of the roster composition, but please, let’s not act as if we don’t have more pressing needs and that he is going to significantly improve the team next year. He’s taking a roster spot that would be MUCH better served by a creating guard, and we all know it.

You hit the nail on the head - JB actually flew halfway across the world to pursue a one dimensional player, and it doesn’t even surprise me. And that’s the sad part

He said “decent fit.” And he’s a fit relative to style of play. He’s a decent fit because he fits JB’s style of play and he potentially upgrades the 4 position. I don’t think it’s ideal to play a slight 6’6" guy at the 4. I’m not sold on the idea of taking Wagner, but as someone mentioned earlier, if you can upgrade a position, you consider it.

We have more than one weakness on the team. I am on the “need a creator” bandwagon, along with everyone else. But I guess I don’t think the situation for next year is quite as dire in that regard as some do. I think a healthy Walton has a lot of potential. I’ve been heartened by what I’ve seen from Irvin over the second half of this season. And I think MAAR can be a great asset if he continues to develop.


#89

I don’t think walton spike and maar in the back court is really that slow (dawkins either). As I said a few months ago I actually think they’d have the potential to run if they wanted to (you guys countered with we don’t like to run which is a good point).with walton maar and dakwins they could really push it coast to coast if they wanted to start running and gunning.


#90

plus the consistent d rebounding to push in the first place obviously. but I don’t think they’d be slow as a back court I guess is my point.


#91

MattD, I think it boils down to the fact that the staff’s evaluation of Wagner is much more favorable than yours. So they are not going to pass on him just because they have Wilson, Robinson and Chatman.(If Caris leaves, I could see Robinson playing some wing) I saw somewhere that Arizona was in the mix. The kid, I believe, is only 17. He was promoted to the top senior level team in Germany. He didn’t play much but produced very well on the junior team. He’s considered one of the top young players in Germany. And one thing about Euros is that they are well schooled in the fundamentals. I respect your opinion after seeing the film clips, but maybe that’s not the complete picture.


#92

Bacon - doesn’t really matter if Donnal is a 4 or 5, it’s the role he plays in the offense…catch and shoot only. So from a functional standpoint he’s no different than Dawkins, Wilson, Irvin, Robinson, Wagner and even Chatman to a lesser degree. The fact that we have 5-7 players that fill the same role is troublesome in my opinion. IF Caris leaves, we literally have 3 people, and only 2 proven, that bring the ball up against a pressure defense and initiate offense. I don’t care how anyone attempts to rationalize, that is a HUGE problem. 2-3 ball handlers, 6-7 catch and shoot players. One true big in Doyle. You can see how problematic that is - simply too much emphasis one one dimensional players.


#93

It is interesting that Alba Berlin wants him to sign a pro contract now. Obviously they know him well (believe he’s been in their youth setup for a while), but I don’t think they’d offer any of Michigan’s other frontcourt players a contract right now :slight_smile:

Wagner is 17 right now, will turn 18 on April 26th.


#94

Ill start out by saying, there is no question the we need and should be able to get a high profile guard who can do everything…I definitely dont get why michigan cant finish and get the high profile guys that we all want to commit.

That being said, everybody needs to remember we have multiple freshmen, and walk ons getting ridiculous amounts of minutes and that everyone of these kids will be better next year in some facet of the game

The kids we do have are going to develop, become more consistent, stronger, and have a better understanding of execution, etc. That is just the natural progression how the game works.

This team will be much improved next year and the problems we see now wont be nearly as noticeable.

Do we need another creator…absolutely… but give the kids we have, a chance to do something about it …

Every kid on this team knows mich won a BT title last year and were in the title game the year before. These kids and coaches want to win and you can guarantee they are working on everything to get things fixed. If the coaches think Moe Wagner fits, then at this point you cant question Beilein. He is one of the best coaches in the country, end of story.

Plenty of talent on this team for players to diversify and raise their games to another level


#95

So a pick and pop guy isn’t valuable at the 5? His problem isn’t that he has a “redundant skill” if we were to have Irvin and Wagner on the floor with him. His issues are toughness and strength. Besides, if Donnal could get his screen setting down, he creates a huge opening in the middle for slashing from Irvin and Dawkins or whoever else. Your throwing Donnal and Wilson in with the guys at the 3-4 spot is silly and is grasping at straws to say that Wagner has no place on this team.

Yes, there’s a lack of creators if Caris leaves. But taking Wagner or not taking Wagner does nothing to solve or highlight the problem if we take 2 players (which I think we will). You continually act like those that wouldn’t mind taking Wagner think that a lack of creators is not a problem. It’s a ridiculous point as no one has said that.


#96
MattD, I think it boils down to the fact that the staff's evaluation of Wagner is much more favorable than yours. So they are not going to pass on him just because they have Wilson, Robinson and Chatman.(If Caris leaves, I could see Robinson playing some wing) I saw somewhere that Arizona was in the mix. The kid, I believe, is only 17. He was promoted to the top senior level team in Germany. He didn't play much but produced very well on the junior team. He's considered one of the top young players in Germany. And one thing about Euros is that they are well schooled in the fundamentals. I respect your opinion after seeing the film clips, but maybe that's not the complete picture.

If Ive given the impression that I don’t think Wagner is a decent player, that certainly isn’t my intent. In fact, I think he can be a solid contributor and supplemental piece as an upperclassmen. But that doesn’t change the fact that we have too many players in the roster that do more or less the same thing that Wagner does - catch and shoot. I’ll be completely honest, it’s come to the point where JB is basically forced to land an upper tier creator with the one available scholarship if we want to be a good/great team in the next 2-4 years. If someone put a gun to my head and asked can JB get that done, I would say no. Can you honestly tell me you don’t think the same. As JBlair said, it appears we will be a mediocre/above average type team in the next 2-4 years with the current recruiting trajectory. We may have the chance to make deep tourney runs every 4-6 years when all of our rotation players are juniors and seniors. I think we would all be fooling ourselves if we thought this is the way it would be coming off the past 2 years. Im disappointed that we cant obtain better talent on a consistent basis. It’s tough losing out on so many good recruits that can make us better instantly rather than 3-4 years, if they work out at all


#97
So a pick and pop guy isn't valuable at the 5? His problem isn't that he has a "redundant skill" if we were to have Irvin and Wagner on the floor with him. His issues are toughness and strength. Besides, if Donnal could get his screen setting down, he creates a huge opening in the middle for slashing from Irvin and Dawkins or whoever else. Your throwing Donnal and Wilson in with the guys at the 3-4 spot is silly and is grasping at straws to say that Wagner has no place on this team.

Yes, there’s a lack of creators if Caris leaves. But taking Wagner or not taking Wagner does nothing to solve or highlight the problem if we take 2 players (which I think we will). You continually act like those that wouldn’t mind taking Wagner think that a lack of creators is not a problem. It’s a ridiculous point as no one has said that.

Yes, I think that a pick and pop guy with a slow release has no value, especially when he can’t play defense or rebound. From that standpoint it’s not silly because they only have one value to the team - catch and shoot. The same value as 5-6 other players on the team. It doesn’t matter so much what label you put in them in terms of position, but more so the value/skill they contribute to the team.


#98
So a pick and pop guy isn't valuable at the 5? His problem isn't that he has a "redundant skill" if we were to have Irvin and Wagner on the floor with him. His issues are toughness and strength. Besides, if Donnal could get his screen setting down, he creates a huge opening in the middle for slashing from Irvin and Dawkins or whoever else. Your throwing Donnal and Wilson in with the guys at the 3-4 spot is silly and is grasping at straws to say that Wagner has no place on this team.

Yes, there’s a lack of creators if Caris leaves. But taking Wagner or not taking Wagner does nothing to solve or highlight the problem if we take 2 players (which I think we will). You continually act like those that wouldn’t mind taking Wagner think that a lack of creators is not a problem. It’s a ridiculous point as no one has said that.

You new here?


#99
So a pick and pop guy isn't valuable at the 5? His problem isn't that he has a "redundant skill" if we were to have Irvin and Wagner on the floor with him. His issues are toughness and strength. Besides, if Donnal could get his screen setting down, he creates a huge opening in the middle for slashing from Irvin and Dawkins or whoever else. Your throwing Donnal and Wilson in with the guys at the 3-4 spot is silly and is grasping at straws to say that Wagner has no place on this team.

Yes, there’s a lack of creators if Caris leaves. But taking Wagner or not taking Wagner does nothing to solve or highlight the problem if we take 2 players (which I think we will). You continually act like those that wouldn’t mind taking Wagner think that a lack of creators is not a problem. It’s a ridiculous point as no one has said that.

You new here?

Actually he’s been around longer than you. As mentioned in the other post, your hibernation awaits


#100
So a pick and pop guy isn't valuable at the 5? His problem isn't that he has a "redundant skill" if we were to have Irvin and Wagner on the floor with him. His issues are toughness and strength. Besides, if Donnal could get his screen setting down, he creates a huge opening in the middle for slashing from Irvin and Dawkins or whoever else. Your throwing Donnal and Wilson in with the guys at the 3-4 spot is silly and is grasping at straws to say that Wagner has no place on this team.

Yes, there’s a lack of creators if Caris leaves. But taking Wagner or not taking Wagner does nothing to solve or highlight the problem if we take 2 players (which I think we will). You continually act like those that wouldn’t mind taking Wagner think that a lack of creators is not a problem. It’s a ridiculous point as no one has said that.

Yes, I think that a pick and pop guy with a slow release has no value, especially when he can’t play defense or rebound. From that standpoint it’s not silly because they only have one value to the team - catch and shoot. The same value as 5-6 other players on the team. It doesn’t matter so much what label you put in them in terms of position, but more so the value/skill they contribute to the team.

What is the problem with having 3 catch and shoot players and 2 creators as opposed to 2 catch and shoot players and two creators? It’s not a problem. The problem is that Donnal can’t set a screen and isn’t tough and doesn’t have the motor. That has nothing to do with taking Wagner as a 4. Argue that Donnal should transfer and we take Cook or some other 5. Argue something other than “5-3,203 players with the same skill set and sitting in a corner” - which they don’t as Irvin, Chatman and Dawkins offer something different than Wagner and Robinson. In a traditional offense, yeah we’d have a problem. But JB doesn’t run a traditional offense.

1&2 - Caris, Walton, Spike, MAAR
3&4 - Irvin, Dawkins, Chatman, Robinson, Wagner
5 - Doyle, Donnal, Wilson

I don’t get it. There’s nothing wrong with taking Wagner.