Clutch moments…very simple for me - if I had to choose between Kobe and LB to take a game winning shot for all the marbles with the deed to my house on the table, I would take Kobe 7 days a week and twice on Sunday…and quite frankly, you, and everybody else on Earth would too. That’s the definition of clutch in my book.
You can go look at the statistics, but Kobe and LBJ are pretty much at a dead heat in last possession shots last I checked. There’s just a perception difference, but despite the popular cliche, perception is not reality. You can’t really go wrong either way.
Personally, I think your points on this are pretty myopic and vague. Guestavo is bringing up valid points while yours are just the typical LBJ hater comments.
I think Kobe is very overrated. I’ll take LBJ over him every day. LBJ has been a more efficient player while his usage rate is very similar to Kobe’s. And LBJ can guard 4 positions.
Call me when Lebron can CONSISTENTLY score from ALL AREAS of the floor on ABOVE LEAGE EFFICIENCY on HIGH VOLUME like Kobe.
Lebron is a transition and around the rim guy who shoots above league average efficiency on LOW VOLUME from areas outside the paint.
The way the Spurs defend Lebron? Yeah, they could NEVER defend Kobe like that and if you think I’m lying, look at any postseason series Kobe had against the Spurs.
The LBJ can guard 4 positions meme has become funny. Kawhii Leonard won FMVP and plays the same position as Lebron last I checked.
Last I checked, basketball was played all over the court so limiting LBJ to one area where Kobe is better is just as silly as limiting Kobe to his around the rim in comparison to LBJ. Not debating who is the best halfcourt player or best transition player. I don’t think that LBJ should be punished because he’s getting his points in a better area than Kobe. If anything, he should be commended for it.
Kobe isn’t better in 1 area, he is better in every area not named the paint.
And claiming the paint is a better area for points is debatable. A guy that can score from every area has to be swarmed from multiple defenders i.e. 2004 and 2008 finals. The Spurs gave Kawhii/Diaw an island with help ready and a 5-10 ft cushion and dared him to shoot in 2013, the Spurs never played Kobe like that.
Kobe’s efficiency from regular season to post season does not dip, Lebron’s shooting percentage plummets a few percentage points because those transition buckets aren’t as often when the playoffs becomes a halfcourt game.
And that is fine if Kobe is better in every other area, but if LBJ is getting just as many shots inside the paint as Kobe is getting outside the paint and making them at a higher rate, it’s kind of moot.
It doesn’t though.
It DOES matter how a defense approaches a given player. Frankly, prime Kobe is a harder assignment and the defensive game plan a,ways involved swarming i.e. “the Jordan rules”
Efficiency has become overrated in basketball talk. Not all production is equal. KD is also more efficient than Kobe but since he has no post game, he is an easier gameplan. Where you score from on the floor matters.
I’d agree with you about where you’re scoring if we’re talking about low or mid usage players. But we’re talking about the focal point of your team. If LBJ is taking less shots to get the same amount of production, that’s less possessions.
More than a perception difference, Kobe’s volume of clutch time shots probably exceeds that of LB by a healthy margin. Additionally, when there is a clutch situation, everybody in the world knows full and well the Lakers are looking to Kobe to take that shot, hands down, and the defense adjusts accordingly. LB on the other hand, is often content to defer and will take the clutch shot sometimes, so the defense isn’t as geared toward him. Where am I going with this - Kobe is faced with an entire team swarming him during clutch moments, LB doesn’t face that same type of pressure. Kobe’s shots are much more difficult, and he is probably the best difficult shot maker of all time, MJ included, no matter the time of year or game.
I’m getting really frustrated having to defend LBJ considering I don’t particularly like him, so I’m out guys. I’m obviously not convincing you of my perspective and I do not feel convinced by yours either.
Bacon - to put this in perspective…LB is a great player, there is no disputing that. I just think that myself and others think this GOAT thing is a bit premature based on the fact that LB hasn’t really achieved winning at a level congruent with the hype, hence the word overrated. Whereas a guy like Kobe had to deal with the overrated claims until he won 2 rings post-Shaq with a roster that is nowhere near the level of MIA’s current team. Also, while LB is a freak athlete, the likes of which we may never see again, he is lacking in the skill department, so many people are of the opinion that he is not like fine wine, he will get much worse with age once the athleticism leaves him.
In any event, I do respect your opinion, and I appreciate the good natured debate.
Yeah, just my final thoughts, I’m pretty much with MattD and guestavo on this. Kobe did the same thing, even a little past his prime, with Gasol and Odom that LeBron did with Wade and Bosh – and had the whole 3-peat thing besides. And LeBron’s stats show a rosier picture that reality. A great player, but not quite to the level being portrayed right now. And probably in a few years, unless LeBron wins a couple more, that will be the prevailing opinon. There were lots of people in the moment saying how great Iverson or Kidd or more recently Nowitzki were, but over time the rings speak pretty strongly.
Came across this and HAD to bring it up. To me, this really works in Kobe’s favor considering he’s 5/7 in the Finals, while Lebron is 2/5…with the MUCH easier path.
Wait, is this a thread trying to argue that Kobe is better than Lebron?
…
Originally, the thread was about LB/Heat potentially being the most overrated player/team of all time…obviously with that comes the comparison from pro-Kobe factions (myself included) as to why he is overrated. Long story short, sort-of, kind-of…yes
I don’t think LBJ is overrated, as I think he is comfortably top 10 all time. I do think Kobe is underrated. The current generation doesn’t realize just how amazing Kobe was.
I don't think LBJ is overrated, as I think he is comfortably top 10 all time. I do think Kobe is underrated. The current generation doesn't realize just how amazing Kobe was.
Kobe is firmly top 5 of all time by most accounts…I think the true debate is whether LJ is also in the top 5. To that I say no.
If I had to pick b/w LBJ and Kobe, I'd take LBJ and IMO, it's not really close. Of course, I'm in the camp that think Kobe is a bit overrated.
I think there is a reasonable argument to be made for either side…but to say it’s not that close either way is kind of ridiculous in my view…especially in LBJ’s case considering the talent base, path to the Finals and lack of hardware.
Tom - I know a lot of people around these parts are ‘skills’ guys as opposed to ‘athleticism’ because it falls in line with JB/UM…don’t know if you are part of that camp, but from a skill standpoint, I don’t think there is much debate Kobe is the superior player.
I’m saying it’s not close for me…and it’s not so much a skill/talent thing…I don’t like Kobe. I think he’s a bit smug and I don’t think he’s a great teammate…again just my opinion. If I was player, coach or GM I would take Lebron over Kobe if I had to chose and it would take me less than a second to make that decision.
Let me reiterate…I’m not suggesting the difference b/w Kobe and Lebron as players ‘is not close’ I’m saying, I would take Lebron over Kobe and it’s not close.
I tend to really dislike the Kobe-LBJ comparison, because it doesn’t really fit. You compare the elite SG to Kobe and out distances all but one. Lebron is not and never will be a SG as a role, not as a position on the floor. To me the comparison for Lebron are the great facilitators from the forward spot (Big O and Pippen) and one PG (Magic), it’s not Kobe or Jordan.
I'm saying it's not close for me...and it's not so much a skill/talent thing...I don't like Kobe. I think he's a bit smug and I don't think he's a great teammate...again just my opinion. If I was player, coach or GM I would take Lebron over Kobe if I had to chose and it would take me less than a second to make that decision.
Let me reiterate…I’m not the difference b/w Kobe and Lebron as players ‘is not close’ I’m saying, I would take Lebron over Kobe and it’s not close.
If you don’t like the guy personally, then that’s fine, but I’m more curious as to your opinion of those 2 as it relates to on court performance.
Some food for thought - and I’m pretty sure I posted this earlier in the thread - you say Kobe isn’t a great teammate…name me one player in NBA history that has sacrificed more for the benefit of the team than Kobe Bean Bryant. You are talking about a guy that played an ENTIRE SEASON with torn ligaments in his shooting hand and still managed to put up ridiculous numbers, a guy that played through dislocated shoulders for an ENTIRE MONTH so the team could make the postseason, a guy that stepped to the FT line to seal a playoff spot with a RUPTURED ACHILLES…if that isn’t the epitome of sacrificing for the team, then I guess I’m a fool.
I tend to really dislike the Kobe-LBJ comparison, because it doesn't really fit. You compare the elite SG to Kobe and out distances all but one. Lebron is not and never will be a SG as a role, not as a position on the floor. To me the comparison for Lebron are the great facilitators from the forward spot (Big O and Pippen) and one PG (Magic), it's not Kobe or Jordan.
Certainly some merit to this…what’s your feeling on overall impact on the game as opposed to a positional debate?
I don’t like comparing players head to head…and frankly if I did, I don’t think Kobe and Lebron play similar games, so I don’t the comparison is fair to either player. I freely admit that I am biased against Kobe because I don’t like him. I don’t have a particular affinity for Lebron…IMO the best ever conversation stops and ends with Michael Jordan. But that is for another thread.
Kobe in his prime was terrific as was/is Lebron. We can spin stats, or spin examples as to why one or the other is better…but we are all looking at the discussion through our own preferences and bias, so in that regard I don’t put too much into how these arguments are framed. For me it’s the look test(and not just on the court) and in this case I prefer Lebron.
They are both great players on the court and their accomplishments speak for themselves.
I tend to really dislike the Kobe-LBJ comparison, because it doesn't really fit. You compare the elite SG to Kobe and out distances all but one. Lebron is not and never will be a SG as a role, not as a position on the floor. To me the comparison for Lebron are the great facilitators from the forward spot (Big O and Pippen) and one PG (Magic), it's not Kobe or Jordan.
Certainly some merit to this…what’s your feeling on overall impact on the game as opposed to a positional debate?
Overall impact to the game? When he’s fully engaged Lebron, but since he is so often not fully engaged, then Kobe. Kobe is the basketball precursor to J.J. Watt, they don’t even know how to dial it down in an All Star game. When engaged though, because of the physical mismatch he enjoys I lean towards Lebron from a game impact standpoint. That said, ask Lebron or Kobe who would they want to take the last shot to win the game and they both answer “Kobe.”
