Lebron James/Heat - most overrated of all time?

I think LeBron is the best player in the game, but he isn't capable of putting a team on his back and carrying it the way Jordan was.

Jordan had Pippen who is also one of the top 20 best player of all time. Pippen did really well when Jordan retired at the time. Bulls went 55-27 the next year and 47-35 the year after it, losing at ECF both times. Without Pippen, MJ wouldn’t win 6 NBA titles. Before they had Pippen, MJ was like LBJ because he couldn’t get over the hump aka the Detroit Bad Boys.

As good as Pippen was, he was never as good as Wade.

lol, good joke. Pippen >> Wade.

Pippen was never in the same stratosphere while the defensive gap isn’t huge since Prime Wade was an excellent on ball and help defender.

My 2 cents:

LeBron - not overrated.

Miami Heat 2014 - overrated.
they didn’t just lose the Spurs, they lost 4 out of 5 and got SPANKED.
the only win was when LeBron had an incredible game and they won by 2.

Follow up thoughts:

  1. LeBron, IMO, has 4-5 elite years left, and will win 1-2 more titles whether in Miami or somewhere else. I wouldn’t be shocked if it’s Cleveland.

  2. Wade in his prime is better than Pippen. Now, of course, he’s old and beaten up. Not nearly the same guy.

  3. I’m certainly not arguing Jordan did it alone. Pippen was great. But I think some of Michael’s title teams had less talent than this Miami squad. The difference is Jordan was always the best player on the floor and could take over a game when he needed to do so. LeBron can’t. He’s still the best player in the league, but it’s a razor thin margin and better “teams” can beat him. That was never the case with Jordan.

I don’t like Lebron but, if I’m honest, I think he retires as the best player of all time. It’s mostly because he is such an athletic freak. He’s fast, He still has quite a few productive years left. After a couple years, he won’t play on the wing so much, but he’ll play PF and be one of the best in the league at that position.

As for Jordan vs James, I think it’s really tough to compare. Jordan had the benefit of playing with Pippen while they were both at the top of their games. James had one, maybe two years with Wade near the top of his game. And of course James had nobody next to him in Cleveland.

The Miami Heat were overrated I guess, mostly because the media salivated over them day and night.

Wow? 4-5 years of elite productivity? Greatest of all time? Best PF in the game?

I have to say I’m a bit surprised by these projections. I can see no more than 2-3 elite years left for LB simply because his game is totally based on athleticism, with little in the way of skill. We’ve seen that once freak athletes lose athleticism via injury or Father Time, the decline in production is very rapid if the skill level isn’t elite (Drose, Wade, Amare). Once the athleticism declines with LB he’s done. Him being a dominant PF is a huge reach, he has zero footwork in the post. If he can’t bully smaller defenders or go past bigger defenders he has no advantage. LB isn’t dominant based on any skill.

I don’t even think im going to address the GOAT claim - I mean c’mon now…2 out of 5, and some point the supporting cast excuse is just that…an excuse.

To each his own though

Wow? 4-5 years of elite productivity? Greatest of all time? Best PF in the game?

I have to say I’m a bit surprised by these projections. I can see no more than 2-3 elite years left for LB simply because his game is totally based on athleticism, with little in the way of skill. We’ve seen that once freak athletes lose athleticism via injury or Father Time, the decline in production is very rapid if the skill level isn’t elite (Drose, Wade, Amare). Once the athleticism declines with LB he’s done. Him being a dominant PF is a huge reach, he has zero footwork in the post. If he can’t bully smaller defenders or go past bigger defenders he has no advantage. LB isn’t dominant based on any skill.

I don’t even think im going to address the GOAT claim - I mean c’mon now…2 out of 5, and some point the supporting cast excuse is just that…an excuse.

To each his own though

Game totally based on athleticism? Come on, that’s complete hyperbole. Have you watched him at all the past couple years? He has steadily improved almost every season. You don’t average 7 assists per game for your career with little skill. I see him staying pretty healthy as he has never missed significant time in his entire career. His height, wingspan and strength will not diminish so I don’t think that’ll be a problem for him in the post.

Championships are overrated when determining the GOAT. So much of that is dependent on the era you play in, what your team setup is and other factors beyond the control of the athlete. There are reasons why Jordan’s first Finals appearance wasn’t until 1991. Jordan got Phil Jackson as coach and Pippen started coming into his own as a player. James made a Final with Mike Brown on the sidelines and a bunch of role players alongside him. 2 in 5 doesn’t tell me much. Two of those losses are against Duncan, Pop and the Spurs, a team better than any that Jordan faced in the Finals IMO. If you’re telling me MJ would have beaten SA in the Finals with the Cavs, then I’ve got a bridge that’ll cross the ocean to sell you.

I’m not saying that James is better than Jordan at this point in time. But if James stays healthy, I think he’ll be the best to have ever played.

Bacon - we agree about 1 thing, so much of winning championships is dependent on the era that a given player is in. That being said, LB’s path to the finals has been against what is universally considered the weakest era of Eastern Comference basketball in history. So in my mind all that does is weaken any argument that LB “needs more help” - the guy is literally playing 4 and 5 seeds that wouldn’t even be .500 in the West let alone make the playoffs. There are literally 5-6 teams in the East that should be contracted. The Eastern conference playoffs are nothing more than glorified practices for MIA and have been so for the past 4 years.

Bacon - we agree about 1 thing, so much of winning championships is dependent on the era that a given player is in. That being said, LB's path to the finals has been against what is universally considered the weakest era of Eastern Comference basketball in history. So in my mind all that does is weaken any argument that LB "needs more help" - the guy is literally playing 4 and 5 seeds that wouldn't even be .500 in the West let alone make the playoffs. There are literally 5-6 teams in the East that should be contracted. The Eastern conference playoffs are nothing more than glorified practices for MIA and have been so for the past 4 years.

I have no problems with saying that LBJ and Miami have one of the easiest paths to the Finals of any team in any era. It is pretty pathetic. But Jordan’s paths to the Finals after the Bad Boys were done weren’t exactly a gauntlet either.

But your path to the Finals doesn’t really have anything to do with the Bulls vs Heat/Cavs when comparing them from a personnel standpoint.

Actually the path to the Finals has everything to do with personnel. With Cleveland LB could make it to the finals with nothing but role players simply because the teams he faced to get to the finals were filled with nothing but role players as well.

I would certainly argue that MIA’s overall roster all 4 years was much better than MJ’s roster during the 3peat

In my mind LB vs MJ isn’t even an argument, and quite frankly I think Kobe>LB by a healthy margin

Actually the path to the Finals has everything to do with personnel. With Cleveland LB could make it to the finals with nothing but role players simply because the teams he faced to get to the finals were filled with nothing but role players as well.

I would certainly argue that MIA’s overall roster all 4 years was much better than MJ’s roster during the 3peat

In my mind LB vs MJ isn’t even an argument, and quite frankly I think Kobe>LB by a healthy margin

You are missing my point. The paths to the Finals don’t really have anything to do when comparing the personnel of LBJ’s teams vs personnel of Jordan’s teams. I never said personnel has nothing or little to do with a team’s path to the Finals. I never said anything about that.

And I think his first two years in Miami, overall roster was better since Bosh and Wade were still elite or close to elite players. Last two years, not so much.

I think Kobe is very overrated. I’ll take LBJ over him every day. LBJ has been a more efficient player while his usage rate is very similar to Kobe’s. And LBJ can guard 4 positions.

I think Kobe is very overrated. I’ll take LBJ over him every day. LBJ has been a more efficient player while his usage rate is very similar to Kobe’s. And LBJ can guard 4 positions.

Call me when Lebron can CONSISTENTLY score from ALL AREAS of the floor on ABOVE LEAGE EFFICIENCY on HIGH VOLUME like Kobe.

Lebron is a transition and around the rim guy who shoots above league average efficiency on LOW VOLUME from areas outside the paint.

The way the Spurs defend Lebron? Yeah, they could NEVER defend Kobe like that and if you think I’m lying, look at any postseason series Kobe had against the Spurs.

The LBJ can guard 4 positions meme has become funny. Kawhii Leonard won FMVP and plays the same position as Lebron last I checked.

I think Kobe is very overrated. I’ll take LBJ over him every day. LBJ has been a more efficient player while his usage rate is very similar to Kobe’s. And LBJ can guard 4 positions.

Call me when Lebron can CONSISTENTLY score from ALL AREAS of the floor on ABOVE LEAGE EFFICIENCY on HIGH VOLUME like Kobe.

Lebron is a transition and around the rim guy who shoots above league average efficiency on LOW VOLUME from areas outside the paint.

The way the Spurs defend Lebron? Yeah, they could NEVER defend Kobe like that and if you think I’m lying, look at any postseason series Kobe had against the Spurs.

The LBJ can guard 4 positions meme has become funny. Kawhii Leonard won FMVP and plays the same position as Lebron last I checked.

Last I checked, basketball was played all over the court so limiting LBJ to one area where Kobe is better is just as silly as limiting Kobe to his around the rim in comparison to LBJ. Not debating who is the best halfcourt player or best transition player. I don’t think that LBJ should be punished because he’s getting his points in a better area than Kobe. If anything, he should be commended for it.

Kawhi had a great finals and he is one of my favorite players in the NBA for his versatility and ability to play both ends. But I don’t think his success came at the expense of LBJ at either end of the floor. Lebron was still the best player in that Finals. And he’s still one of the best defenders in the NBA whether he is guarding on the wing or in the paint.

I think Kobe is very overrated. I’ll take LBJ over him every day. LBJ has been a more efficient player while his usage rate is very similar to Kobe’s. And LBJ can guard 4 positions.

Call me when Lebron can CONSISTENTLY score from ALL AREAS of the floor on ABOVE LEAGE EFFICIENCY on HIGH VOLUME like Kobe.

Lebron is a transition and around the rim guy who shoots above league average efficiency on LOW VOLUME from areas outside the paint.

The way the Spurs defend Lebron? Yeah, they could NEVER defend Kobe like that and if you think I’m lying, look at any postseason series Kobe had against the Spurs.

The LBJ can guard 4 positions meme has become funny. Kawhii Leonard won FMVP and plays the same position as Lebron last I checked.

Last I checked, basketball was played all over the court so limiting LBJ to one area where Kobe is better is just as silly as limiting Kobe to his around the rim in comparison to LBJ. Not debating who is the best halfcourt player or best transition player. I don’t think that LBJ should be punished because he’s getting his points in a better area than Kobe. If anything, he should be commended for it.

Kobe isn’t better in 1 area, he is better in every area not named the paint.

And claiming the paint is a better area for points is debatable. A guy that can score from every area has to be swarmed from multiple defenders i.e. 2004 and 2008 finals. The Spurs gave Kawhii/Diaw an island with help ready and a 5-10 ft cushion and dared him to shoot in 2013, the Spurs never played Kobe like that.

Kobe’s efficiency from regular season to post season does not dip, Lebron’s shooting percentage plummets a few percentage points because those transition buckets aren’t as often when the playoffs becomes a halfcourt game.

Bacon - here’s why I started the thread in a nutshell - a sizable portion of basketball fans think Lebron is the greatest player of this generation and some think he is even the GOAT. The chief argument against LB being the greatest player of this generation is Kobe, pro LB people say he makes his teammates better in a way that KObe can’t, while pro Kobe people point to the rings.

I think LB and the Heat are the the most overrated player/team of all time based on this:

From a team standpoint - 4 hall of fame players on one roster; 3 of them in their primes when signed and the infamous “not 3, not 4, not 5…” - only to win 2 out of 4 championships and being badly embarrassed in their most recent appearance. Underachievers in my book

LB - the claim that LB makes his team/teammates better in a way that nobody else can, namely Kobe - well how can we say that LB makes his teammates better in one breath and then proceed to say he’s not getting enough help from his team in the next breath? Isn’t that his specialty - to MAKE his team/teammates better? In my book that is an inherent contradiction and nothing more than an excuse. I mean, what should we do, give him 5 hall of famers on his team and then maybe that will be enough help? Bottom line - you can’t play both sides of the fence, if the man is truly that great then he would elevate the play of his teammates - you can’t say he doesn’t have enough help and then also say he makes his team better in a way that no other player can. If that were true he would be the one with 5 rings and a reputation for raising his game in clutch moments. But he’s not - that is reserved for one Kobe Bean Bryant.

I think Kobe is very overrated. I’ll take LBJ over him every day. LBJ has been a more efficient player while his usage rate is very similar to Kobe’s. And LBJ can guard 4 positions.

Call me when Lebron can CONSISTENTLY score from ALL AREAS of the floor on ABOVE LEAGE EFFICIENCY on HIGH VOLUME like Kobe.

Lebron is a transition and around the rim guy who shoots above league average efficiency on LOW VOLUME from areas outside the paint.

The way the Spurs defend Lebron? Yeah, they could NEVER defend Kobe like that and if you think I’m lying, look at any postseason series Kobe had against the Spurs.

The LBJ can guard 4 positions meme has become funny. Kawhii Leonard won FMVP and plays the same position as Lebron last I checked.

Last I checked, basketball was played all over the court so limiting LBJ to one area where Kobe is better is just as silly as limiting Kobe to his around the rim in comparison to LBJ. Not debating who is the best halfcourt player or best transition player. I don’t think that LBJ should be punished because he’s getting his points in a better area than Kobe. If anything, he should be commended for it.

Kobe isn’t better in 1 area, he is better in every area not named the paint.

And claiming the paint is a better area for points is debatable. A guy that can score from every area has to be swarmed from multiple defenders i.e. 2004 and 2008 finals. The Spurs gave Kawhii/Diaw an island with help ready and a 5-10 ft cushion and dared him to shoot in 2013, the Spurs never played Kobe like that.

Kobe’s efficiency from regular season to post season does not dip, Lebron’s shooting percentage plummets a few percentage points because those transition buckets aren’t as often when the playoffs becomes a halfcourt game.

And that is fine if Kobe is better in every other area, but if LBJ is getting just as many shots inside the paint as Kobe is getting outside the paint and making them at a higher rate, it’s kind of moot.

And LBJ’s field goal efficiency was still better than Kobe’s despite these “plummets”.

And I don’t think limiting Kobe vs LBJ in how the Spurs defend them makes much sense whatsoever.

Bacon - here's why I started the thread in a nutshell - a sizable portion of basketball fans think Lebron is the greatest player of this generation and some think he is even the GOAT. The chief argument against LB being the greatest player of this generation is Kobe, pro LB people say he makes his teammates better in a way that KObe can't, while pro Kobe people point to the rings.

I think LB and the Heat are the the most overrated player/team of all time based on this:

From a team standpoint - 4 hall of fame players on one roster; 3 of them in their primes when signed and the infamous “not 3, not 4, not 5…” - only to win 2 out of 4 championships and being badly embarrassed in their most recent appearance. Underachievers in my book

LB - the claim that LB makes his team/teammates better in a way that nobody else can, namely Kobe - well how can we say that LB makes his teammates better in one breath and then proceed to say he’s not getting enough help from his team in the next breath? Isn’t that his specialty - to MAKE his team/teammates better? In my book that is an inherent contradiction and nothing more than an excuse. I mean, what should we do, give him 5 hall of famers on his team and then maybe that will be enough help? Bottom line - you can’t play both sides of the fence, if the man is truly that great then he would elevate the play of his teammates - you can’t say he doesn’t have enough help and then also say he makes his team better in a way that no other player can. If that were true he would be the one with 5 rings and a reputation for raising his game in clutch moments. But he’s not - that is reserved for one Kobe Bean Bryant.

You can say they underachieved by only winning 2 of 4 Finals, but the only Finals that you can say LBJ underachieved is the series against the Mavericks. He’s been great in the other three.

I don’t know why you keep harping on things I never said. I’ve never mentioned LBJ or MJ making their teammates better. And the only time I have used talent around him as an excuse is when he was in Cleveland, because he was surrounded by mostly schmucks and no player ever was going to win the series against the Spurs with that team, especially in their early 20s. The fact that that team made the Finals suggests that LBJ elevated his teammates.

As for clutch moments, if you’re talking about end of game situations, that myth has been debunked many times over.

I think Kobe is very overrated. I’ll take LBJ over him every day. LBJ has been a more efficient player while his usage rate is very similar to Kobe’s. And LBJ can guard 4 positions.

Call me when Lebron can CONSISTENTLY score from ALL AREAS of the floor on ABOVE LEAGE EFFICIENCY on HIGH VOLUME like Kobe.

Lebron is a transition and around the rim guy who shoots above league average efficiency on LOW VOLUME from areas outside the paint.

The way the Spurs defend Lebron? Yeah, they could NEVER defend Kobe like that and if you think I’m lying, look at any postseason series Kobe had against the Spurs.

The LBJ can guard 4 positions meme has become funny. Kawhii Leonard won FMVP and plays the same position as Lebron last I checked.

Last I checked, basketball was played all over the court so limiting LBJ to one area where Kobe is better is just as silly as limiting Kobe to his around the rim in comparison to LBJ. Not debating who is the best halfcourt player or best transition player. I don’t think that LBJ should be punished because he’s getting his points in a better area than Kobe. If anything, he should be commended for it.

Kobe isn’t better in 1 area, he is better in every area not named the paint.

And claiming the paint is a better area for points is debatable. A guy that can score from every area has to be swarmed from multiple defenders i.e. 2004 and 2008 finals. The Spurs gave Kawhii/Diaw an island with help ready and a 5-10 ft cushion and dared him to shoot in 2013, the Spurs never played Kobe like that.

Kobe’s efficiency from regular season to post season does not dip, Lebron’s shooting percentage plummets a few percentage points because those transition buckets aren’t as often when the playoffs becomes a halfcourt game.

And that is fine if Kobe is better in every other area, but if LBJ is getting just as many shots inside the paint as Kobe is getting outside the paint and making them at a higher rate, it’s kind of moot.

It doesn’t though.

It DOES matter how a defense approaches a given player. Frankly, prime Kobe is a harder assignment and the defensive game plan a,ways involved swarming i.e. “the Jordan rules”

Efficiency has become overrated in basketball talk. Not all production is equal. KD is also more efficient than Kobe but since he has no post game, he is an easier gameplan. Where you score from on the floor matters.

Bacon - here's why I started the thread in a nutshell - a sizable portion of basketball fans think Lebron is the greatest player of this generation and some think he is even the GOAT. The chief argument against LB being the greatest player of this generation is Kobe, pro LB people say he makes his teammates better in a way that KObe can't, while pro Kobe people point to the rings.

I think LB and the Heat are the the most overrated player/team of all time based on this:

From a team standpoint - 4 hall of fame players on one roster; 3 of them in their primes when signed and the infamous “not 3, not 4, not 5…” - only to win 2 out of 4 championships and being badly embarrassed in their most recent appearance. Underachievers in my book

LB - the claim that LB makes his team/teammates better in a way that nobody else can, namely Kobe - well how can we say that LB makes his teammates better in one breath and then proceed to say he’s not getting enough help from his team in the next breath? Isn’t that his specialty - to MAKE his team/teammates better? In my book that is an inherent contradiction and nothing more than an excuse. I mean, what should we do, give him 5 hall of famers on his team and then maybe that will be enough help? Bottom line - you can’t play both sides of the fence, if the man is truly that great then he would elevate the play of his teammates - you can’t say he doesn’t have enough help and then also say he makes his team better in a way that no other player can. If that were true he would be the one with 5 rings and a reputation for raising his game in clutch moments. But he’s not - that is reserved for one Kobe Bean Bryant.

You can say they underachieved by only winning 2 of 4 Finals, but the only Finals that you can say LBJ underachieved is the series against the Mavericks. He’s been great in the other three.

I’d hardly call 2007 and 2013 “great.” He ran hot and cold.

There is also a lengthy list of guys who suffered statistical declines playing with Lebron

Conversely, the list of guys who had statistical best years under Kobe is lengthy

As already pointed out, LB stats looked great in this year’s Finals, but a good portion of his productivity came in garbage time. Game 5 for instance - LB put on a clinic in the third quarter…when MIA was down 20-30 points. When the game was in doubt in the 2nd quarter, I could’ve mistaken LB for Houdini. And this happened in multiple games this year.

I never claimed you said LB or MJ made teammates better, I simply said that’s the reason I started this thread. After all, that is the primary argument pro LB people make on his behalf - that he makes his team better…that’s garbage. If you make your team better, then you win rings, plain and simple.

Clutch moments…very simple for me - if I had to choose between Kobe and LB to take a game winning shot for all the marbles with the deed to my house on the table, I would take Kobe 7 days a week and twice on Sunday…and quite frankly, you, and everybody else on Earth would too. That’s the definition of clutch in my book.