Eating Crow: Revisited

Michigan Basketball
141

I think you, like many UM fans, don’t get it. No offense, because you’ve obviously spent a lot of time compiling this information, though some of it is intentionally manipulated. For example, there were not 92 better players than Hardaway in his class, or 330 players better than Levert, or 75 players better than Stauskas, or 740 (!!!) players better than Albrecht.

But let me return to my original point about why you don’t get it.

You know how many McDonalds All Americans we have signed since the Robert Traylor class? Two. Lavell Blanchard and Daniel Horton.

You know why that’s important? Do you think it’s because we have fallen so far off the radar as a basketball school that, all things being equal, we can’t land guys like that? I’ll give you the answer: no. There are plenty of worse basketball schools that have landed McDonalds All Americans since we signed Horton in 2002.

This is what it means - we do not recruit in gray areas.

Forget about John Beilein. When Tommy Amaker coached at Seton Hall, he landed the #1 class in the country (headlined by Eddie Griffin). When he came here, he did a good job of recruiting, but it was far from great - and we lost some big de-commitments in Al Horford and Joe Crawford to Florida and Kentucky, respectively. In terms of recruiting, if you had to come up with a 10-man, “all Michigan” team from 2001 until now, probably 8 of 10 guys would be Beilein recruits.

Did Tommy Amaker just lose his mojo when he came here? No. He’s now landing some talented kids at Harvard, of all places (and within the past few years, there was a big New York Times article about how Amaker had been able to successfully bend the academic standards to get some of these kids admitted).

Here is the reality you fail to appreciate. The Ed Martin scandal was a really big, embarrassing deal to our athletic department, and to the donors of Michigan athletics who matter. We pride ourselves on integrity and following the rules. And yet Chris Webber, as far as I know, received more money from Ed Martin than any athlete has received from any booster in the history of college athletics.

The mandate since the sanctions came down has been pretty clear - it can never happen again. Yes, we want to field a competitive basketball team, but this is a football school. If the football team is winning, and 110,000 people are coming every Saturday, that’s what matters. We are not Kentucky, and we are not Kansas - schools with lousy football teams whose athletic departments live and die with men’s college basketball. So we’re not willing to do whatever it takes to win big in college basketball.

And by the way, you may have noticed in the Fab Five documentary that a lot of Michigan fans didn’t like the way that group conducted themselves. (I’m not one of them - I loved the Fab Five). The idea of having to do underhanded things to land talented kids who also act (in the minds of many) like a**holes on the court - not a real selling point for many Michigan fans.

That’s the reality.

And that’s why it’s also completely insane to think Beilein is anywhere even remotely close to “the hot seat.” I’m telling you right now, he could miss the tournament next year and he’s not getting fired. And this “Warde Manual comes from a basketballs school” stuff - he was a Michigan football player. He understands the values the athletic department holds dear.

I’ll tell you why John Beilein is extremely valuable as a coach. Because given these self-imposed recruiting limitations, he’s proven extremely great at identifying underrated talent and turning those players into great players. There are not many coaches who have found guys ranked in the 70s, 80s and 90s like Stauskas, Burke and Hardaway, and who have turned those kids into NBA players. Ditto for Levert.

Someday you’ll all get your wish - JB will retire. Look, there are a few coaches out there who I think are really good coaches and who I think would be really good cultural fits (both with the school and the conference). Two of them would be Tony Bennett and Gregg Marshall. If we could get one of those guys down the road, I’d be happy. And while neither is a great offensive coach, both guys have great defensive teams, and that’s one thing that’s sorely lacking right now for us.

I also want to make something clear - I am not saying I agree with what I believe is the reality of our recruiting situation. There are times when I hate the fact that we play by a different set of rules, with one hand tied behind our back. Whether we should recruit like we did in the 1980s and 1990s is a totally different discussion. But I’m telling you, this comes from the athletic department and the school.

Do some things need to change with our team? Absolutely. On offense, we can’t set picks, we have some really unintelligent players at the moment, our big guys are soft, and we don’t drive to the basket enough (though I’m not sure we have the personnel for it). Defensively, there are a TON of things that are wrong. Like the 2009/10 season, this was a year where we haven’t played well, and I don’t think JB has done a real good job with this group. Of course, losing Spike and Caris has been a big part of it - we still wouldn’t be a strong postseason contender with them, but I think we’re easily in the tournament if they hadn’t gotten hurt.

Anyway, for those of you lamenting JB’s recruiting, and the lack of five star players he lands, it’s not going to be any different with a new coach unless the AD has a completely different attitude about things. Just watch.

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142

I think you’re completely wrong. We DO get it. We get that we’re supposed to put our sweatervests and slacks on and enjoy the beautiful gift of a “clean” program.

We all get what it’s like and why it’s like this. Nothing new bringing up the sanctions…pretty sure everyone here knows about those and their impact.

I find it funny you cherry picked Kentucky and Kansas as your examples. Let’s just keep it local…how about Michigan State? Top 10 in both sports. Or even just Oklahoma, Top 5 in both sports. Even Iowa is Top 25 in both sports.

And I can’t help but notice you pit the “clean” vs. “gray” areas. I don’t see anyone here clamoring for shady tactics. Simply showing some love to these kids would go a long way. Keep your distance from the kids with handlers by all means but loosen up the suspenders.

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143

A year ago, I simply wouldn’t have bothered to respond to this type of post…knowing good and well the ‘benefit of the doubt’ contention was so strong that it would prevail on this board irrelevant of objective information/data. I think the board is at a point where objectivity and logic are going to prevail as opposed to emotion/blind support…and I’m going to proceed as such.

Let’s examine this and find out who is truly manipulating data…you claim there weren’t 92 players better than Hardaway, acknowledged. No way were there 329 players better than Levert, agreed. Stauskas was better than 75, no doubt about it. Spike was better than 740…of course he was.

That being said, it’s almost comical how you cite to a ‘true ranking’ system, yet fail to acknowledge the vastly overrated guys we’ve landed over the years…in other words you want to isolate the dialogue to JB’s ‘gems’ without acknowledging his ‘busts’.

Matt Vogrich - ranked #213, true rank probably in the 500-600 range
Evan Smotrycz - ranked #84, true rank probably 200-250
Carlton Brundidge - ranked #75, true rank probably in the 500-600 range
Zak Irvin - ranked #22, true rank probably around 65
Derrick Walton - ranked #30, true rank probably around 65
Mark Donnal - ranked #89, true rank probably around 150
Kam Chatman - ranked #38, true rank probably around 300
Ricky Doyle - ranked #150, true rank probably around 250
DJ Wilson (how can I forget) - ranked #181, true rank probably around 300

So yeah, for all the JB Development/underrated gem talk, JB has a lot of guys that were busts. Quite frankly, he’s probably had just as many busts relevant to guys that outperform…yet it hasn’t been until recently that people will acknowledge that. …this is just more evidence of that.

The claim that the AD will not allow JB/any UM BBall coach latitude in recruiting is absolute non-sense, and nothing more than an excuse for poor recruiting…and that’s reality. How do we know this…one man, James Joseph Harbaugh. He operates in all shades of gray, and guess what, Manuel, or any other AD isn’t going to do a damn thing about it…so you expect us to believe that JB has a different set of standards than Coach Harbaugh?

Please, just stop it with this blind support…it truly is ridiculous at this point. Just call it what it is, JB is simply a sub-par recruiter that struggles to land talent on a consistent basis, and it has nothing to do with lack of a level playing field. Tom Izzo runs a clean program and he’s cleaning up…there are simply no excuses, end of story.

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144

Obvious choice would be Chris Mack, along with Kevin Ollie.

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145

although I do think there arereason to be critical, I think the people that think JB should be in the hot seat are misguided. He has had bad misses in recruiting in 14 and 15 and some bad luck with injuries but to call him a bad recruiter since he has been here seems to miss the obvious fact: He recruited an nba player in 11, an nba player in 12, 3 nba players in 13. Part of our problems now are directly related not to bad recruiting but because he recruited too well! Those players left early. That much should be obvious. Having said that I don’t understand a few of his recruits lately. They don’t make sense to me but I don’t see how a little slack can not be cut. We are lucky to have Beilein!

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146

When I say sub-par recruiter, I’m not limiting it to ranking or individual talent alone. JB is a sub-par recruiter because in addition to failing to land legit B10 caliber talent on a consistent basis, his roster management leaves a lot to be desired, and he has absolutely no flexibility. He is obsessed with landing shooters than can pass irrelevant of team needs…even if it means the team will lose. We sorely need athletes with motor, and JB has to know this. Simply no excuses IMO.

That being said, I never claimed JB was on the hot seat. In fact, I expressly stated that I think he’s done enough to be safe for this year. However, if we miss the tourney next year, I think its fairly obvious that JB has already reached his peak…and it would be time to move in a new direction.

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147

Here’s the problem with your argument - it’s a “Johnny Come Lately” one.

Are Iowa and Oklahoma top 5 in both sports in most years? Nope. (And by the way, Oklahoma football has about the worst graduation rate in any sport - but that’s another discussion). JB has had a much better run here than McCaffrey has had at Iowa, or Kruger has had at Oklahoma. So sure, this year, both those schools are having better seasons. Do you judge a coach on a year-to-year basis? Have fun hiring a new guy who knows that if he doesn’t win big every single year, the fan base will clamor for a replacement.

MSU? Hardly a top 5 football program until the past couple years.

As far as Izzo, I think he plays in plenty of questionable areas, but let’s just assume he’s 100% clean (which he’s not, but let’s assume it). You might be searching 20 years for a coach as good as Tom Izzo. If that’s your standard, good luck. You’ll fire JB and the next 5-6 guys over the next 10-15 years looking for the next Tom Izzo. The guy’s a Hall of Famer, a top 5 coach in the game for the past 15 years.

Think if MSU football has a recruiting scandal, falls off a cliff for 15 years, while Harbaugh absolutely dominates. And then MSU hires a guy who enjoys some success against Harbaugh, and nationally, but isn’t quite as good as Harbaugh overall. Should they fire that guy, because once upon a time 15 years ago (actually, in our case, 20 years ago), they had a great program (that also cheated to get top players)? It sounds dumb, right?

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148

Yeah, because Ollie has done such an awesome job since winning it all two years ago. Didn’t they miss the tourney entirely last year?

Chris Mack? I like him, but you can’t recruit a Jalen Reynolds here.

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149

Don’t try to pull out the facts, this guy doesn’t get it. there are more guys that have performed below their projection than there are guy who have outperformed it. That’s just facts. So of coarse the 4 in the NBA have outperformed what they were projected alone but look at this current roster and look at the guys who haven’t met their expectations. It’s pretty obvious to see. Relying on lesser talent to develop into good/great players is not a good place to be. Yes it worked for a year or two, but that is it. This beilein’s 10th year here? I feel a coach making 3mil plus should be better than what we have gotten, am I wrong in thinking that?

150

You again miss the point. We’re a football school. We’re going to do what it takes to field a great football team, especially after attendance dwindled like it did under Hoke, yet still within the rules. Harbaugh hasn’t broken any rules. Steve Fisher did. If Harbaugh lands Michigan on probation the way Fisher did, he’ll get fired and we’ll eliminate whatever practices led to us being on probation.

I love the way you just gloss over dirty recruiting because it doesn’t fit your agenda. Even with the NCAA lacking subpoena power, there have been a TON of recruiting scandals in recent years, and yet you can’t seem to accept it for some reason. Quit being an ostrich. It’s well known, right, that Coach K got jobs for Chris Duhon’s mom, and Carlos Boozer’s dad? You think we would stand for that? Not a chance.

And by the way, for a good 2-3 years, Tom Izzo was not “cleaning up” at all in recruiting. He was losing guys all over the place.

You make me laugh. We’ll never do what it takes to land elite talent, and you’ll always be bitching about it. We could visit this board in ten years and you’ll be saying the same stuff. We’re going to need a great coach to win, not a great recruiter, because we can’t pursue many of the kids you want to pursue. Now, if you want to argue someone else might be a better coach (that’s why I offered guys like Bennett and Marshall, who have been more successful that Chris Mack), fine. But your recruiting narrative is nonsense.

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151

Look at their 4 players coming in next year and look at ours. People wouldn’t have a single complaint if we had more classes like that excluding the 2012? Class. I believe that was beilein’s only elite class. More talent being recruited is a must. We are living the effects of poor recruiting.

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152

You’re right - I would absolutely agree that this current crop is really underperforming, and that’s exactly why we’re not that good. Today, Walton and Donnal combined for as many fouls (4) as points. That can’t happen.

But good lord, get a grip. We were in the fricking finals three years ago, and the Elite Eight two years ago. We’ve had four first round picks (Burke, Stauskas, McGary, Hardaway), and another three guys (Robinson, Harris, Morris) with stints in the NBA, with Caris to soon join them. You do realize we missed the tourney for 10 straight years before we hired JB, right?

I’m really not sure what your expectation level is. Should we be in the Elite Eight every year? And what is it about Michigan basketball that makes you think that?

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153

I expect to finish top 5 big ten and be a tourney team every year. I don’t feel that too much to ask for at all

154

I understand these guys have gotten to the NBA. But how many will be there in 3-5 years? I’m guessing hardaway Bd Burke will and that’s it. Also, you’re proving my point. We were in the elite 8 two years in a row, why don’t we have better players on our roster then?

155

Oh now we have to judge Beilein on how long the NBA careers of his players last? This is getting ridiculous.

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156

Here is a fun exercise. Someone please give me a list of the other bad recruiters who have had 6 NBA talents since the 2011 class.

157

But again, we’re never going to be an elite recruiting school year in and year out. Moreover, the thing that I’ve said is GREAT about JB - his ability to spot underrated talent - was responsible for that great 2012 class. Robinson? He was ranked #120 when we got him, and then later blew up. Levert? Spike? Nik? We didn’t land a class full of five stars. Same with Burke. Don’t you see the completely hypocritical position you’re taking here? You say “most” of our recruits have underachieved relative to their ranking (and seemingly suggest we need higher rated kids), yet you cite the 2012 class as “great” when, in fact, the reason it’s great is that most of them outperformed their rankings!

By the way, here’s a great example: Florida. Go look at where their current players were ranked. Many of them were pretty high, not unlike Walton, Irvin, Chatman, and Donnal. Those guys just simply aren’t performing very well, either (and indeed, Donovan - a great coach - himself didn’t make the tourney last year before leaving for the NBA). It happens.

158

No I’m not saying that at all. But it does mean something I think. Are my expectation too much?

159

lol, are you kidding? absolutely.

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160

Before the Fab 5 and the Ed Martin saga, would you say that M was a dirty program LA?

Because if we weren’t, than how did we attract such nationally high ranked recruits as … Rellford, Wade, Tarpley, Grant, Joubert, Mills, Vaught, Rice, Higgins, Robinson, Hubbard, Green and on and on?

This school has more historical BB tradition than just about anybody in the B1G except IU and Purdue. It is ridiculous to think that we can not recruit at that level ever again because of a scandal that is over 20 years gone by.

JB is just not “cool” to these kids for whatever reason, and that’s the damn truth. Our facilities are now the Taj Mahal compared to what Orr and Frieder had to offer. And neither one of those coaches made shit compared to what we are currently paying JB.

It is so tiresome to continually say that we can’t compete because everyone else is dirty. That is such a cop out. I distinctly remember JB commenting how enticing it would be coming to M because of the caliber of talent the school inherently would attract. How’s he done with that?

I respect your BB knowledge, but if JB thinks he is ever going to make M a consistent tourney team with the kind of athlete he prefers, I would disagree vehemently.

If you can’t recruit at M than you just can’t recruit period, and the blame is all on him. He values one skill set, and that is why we have such a deficient roster devoid of athletes.

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