I like our options at the 4 next year. Wilson, robinson, chatman, and if Mortiz Wagner comes here we can have a lot of options. All of them are unknowns except for chatman but he would be able to see more time at the 3 next year.
I like our options at the 4 next year. Wilson, robinson, chatman, and if Mortiz Wagner comes here we can have a lot of options. All of them are unknowns except for chatman but he would be able to see more time at the 3 next year.
Problem is none of them appear to be good rebounders or defenders.
Walton and LeVert (if he returns) are terrific rebounders so they could help in that regard. Irvin has also rebounded much better over the last few weeks.
I think just about anyone (Wilson, Chatman, Wagner) would be a better rebounding option than Aubrey Dawkins, because he’s really struggled there.
But for Michigan to be a significantly better rebounding team next year, I think that Ricky Doyle needs to make a huge leap there. That means doing a better job of boxing out, not chasing blocks he can’t get to, etc. His OReb numbers are great this year but his DReb numbers are terrible. Part of that is scheme (boxing out for the guards to clean up), but an offensive rebounding rate of 11.8% just isn’t good enough for a starting five man.
If you don't think Jordan Morgan improved defensively over four years then I don't know what games you were watching.Jordan looked like Ricky Doyle vs. Alex Olah during his freshman year against teams like Concordia. http://statsheet.com/mcb/games/2010/12/06/concordia-mi-65-michigan-86
Matt, with all due respect, the notion that Jordan Morgan did not improve because his freshman numbers were better than his
By his senior year he was stopping guys like Jarnell Stokes http://statsheet.com/mcb/games/2014/03/28/tennessee-71-michigan-73 and Cameron Ridley http://statsheet.com/mcb/games/2014/03/22/texas-65-michigan-79 when it mattered.
He’s just one player but he was the foundation of the program for much of the last four years. If you want to use Mitch from day 1 to the NCAA finals, there’s another one.
What other bigs has he had to work with in Ann Arbor? Jon Horford, DeShawn Sims that’s about it.
Don’t argue with the greatest basketball mind this board has ever seen.
Man, what do you want from me? I openly admit, and even love the fact that JMo was a very good defensive player. But to say he improved while at UM is just flat out false, and the numbers back that up. He was good as a freshman and remained good…JB did nothing to make him better. I just can’t stand the fact that people paint this guy as some sort of developmental god that is an absolute great coach…he is a good coach that makes perimeter players better, partly because of the system he runs, and partly based on skill development. But it’s an insult to my, and any other reasonable basketball mind to say that this guy develops post players on defense, or anything defense related in general and you know it.
I get it, the guy is our coach and he’s made the program respectable. He’s a damn good coach, but he has limitations, some severe, some he can compensate for. It’s not so much that I don’t like JB, but more so that fact that people overrate the guy simply because he’s the coach at UM.
Matt, the notion that Jordan Morgan didn’t improve defensively because his rebound/block percentages were better as a freshman is flat out absurd. As a freshman, he played with a much, much smaller team than he did as an upperclassman–as an upperclassman, he played with much younger teams than he did as a freshman. These things impact not only his numbers, but his help in a team defensive setting. This is not about negativity versus positivity–there is literally no one else I’ve ever read or talked to who watched any Michigan games (as I know you do) and reached your conclusion. As a freshman, Jordan got torched by a 6’5" DIII player from Concordia for 29 playing him one on one in the post. If you think that would have happened as a senior, I don’t know what to tell you.
If you want to say that Morgan is an exception, that’s a very colorable argument. If you want to say that he didn’t improve either, well, that defies belief. I am pretty good at seeing both sides of most arguments and arguing against reasonable contrary positions–as a litigator, that’s my job. This isn’t an argument I can even remotely see.
If you don't think Jordan Morgan improved defensively over four years then I don't know what games you were watching.Jordan looked like Ricky Doyle vs. Alex Olah during his freshman year against teams like Concordia. http://statsheet.com/mcb/games/2010/12/06/concordia-mi-65-michigan-86
Matt, with all due respect, the notion that Jordan Morgan did not improve because his freshman numbers were better than his
By his senior year he was stopping guys like Jarnell Stokes http://statsheet.com/mcb/games/2014/03/28/tennessee-71-michigan-73 and Cameron Ridley http://statsheet.com/mcb/games/2014/03/22/texas-65-michigan-79 when it mattered.
He’s just one player but he was the foundation of the program for much of the last four years. If you want to use Mitch from day 1 to the NCAA finals, there’s another one.
What other bigs has he had to work with in Ann Arbor? Jon Horford, DeShawn Sims that’s about it.
Don’t argue with the greatest basketball mind this board has ever seen.
Man, what do you want from me? I openly admit, and even love the fact that JMo was a very good defensive player. But to say he improved while at UM is just flat out false, and the numbers back that up. He was good as a freshman and remained good…JB did nothing to make him better. I just can’t stand the fact that people paint this guy as some sort of developmental god that is an absolute great coach…he is a good coach that makes perimeter players better, partly because of the system he runs, and partly based on skill development. But it’s an insult to my, and any other reasonable basketball mind to say that this guy develops post players on defense, or anything defense related in general and you know it.
I get it, the guy is our coach and he’s made the program respectable. He’s a damn good coach, but he has limitations, some severe, some he can compensate for. It’s not so much that I don’t like JB, but more so that fact that people overrate the guy simply because he’s the coach at UM.
Matt, the notion that Jordan Morgan didn’t improve defensively because his rebound/block percentages were better as a freshman is flat out absurd. As a freshman, he played with a much, much smaller team than he did as an upperclassman–as an upperclassman, he played with much younger teams than he did as a freshman. These things impact not only his numbers, but his help in a team defensive setting. This is not about negativity versus positivity–there is literally no one else I’ve ever read or talked to who watched any Michigan games (as I know you do) and reached your conclusion. As a freshman, Jordan got torched by a 6’5" DIII player from Concordia for 29 playing him one on one in the post. If you think that would have happened as a senior, I don’t know what to tell you.
If you want to say that Morgan is an exception, that’s a very colorable argument. If you want to say that he didn’t improve either, well, that defies belief. I am pretty good at seeing both sides of most arguments and arguing against reasonable contrary positions–as a litigator, that’s my job. This isn’t an argument I can even remotely see.
No, Im going to call it how I see it. Jmo didn’t improve on defense during his tenure at UM irrelevant of your narrative or anyone else. Providing isolated stat lines for opposing players is an act in futility in my view. Im sure I can cherry pick a few games he had as an upperclassmen where somebody gave him the business.
If you want to go along with this notion that JB improves players with respect to defense and rebounding, go ahead, but don’t insult MY intelligence.
Walton and LeVert (if he returns) are terrific rebounders so they could help in that regard. Irvin has also rebounded much better over the last few weeks.I think just about anyone (Wilson, Chatman, Wagner) would be a better rebounding option than Aubrey Dawkins, because he’s really struggled there.
But for Michigan to be a significantly better rebounding team next year, I think that Ricky Doyle needs to make a huge leap there. That means doing a better job of boxing out, not chasing blocks he can’t get to, etc. His OReb numbers are great this year but his DReb numbers are terrible. Part of that is scheme (boxing out for the guards to clean up), but an offensive rebounding rate of 11.8% just isn’t good enough for a starting five man.
It’s a problem every year, that is a big problem I have with JB. How the heck do you label this man a great coach when he has the same damn problem every year. Seriously Dylan, how hard can it be to teach players to box out. I can honestly say that my daughters AAU team boxes out better than UM, and that is pathetic.
Defensive numbers from Synergy
Jordan Morgan defensive PPP as a senior: .777, 76th percentile)
Jordan Morgan defensive PPP as a freshman: .863 PPP (48th percentile)
Defensive numbers from SynergyJordan Morgan defensive PPP as a senior: .777, 76th percentile)
Jordan Morgan defensive PPP as a freshman: .863 PPP (48th percentile)
Less than 1/9 of a point does nothing to change my view considering the other stats that others claim don’t mean anything.
You can see it however you want. Two things though–(1) It doesn’t help you to win arguments to incorrectly characterize what the other side said. No one in this argument has said that JB “improves players [note: players is plural] with respect to defense and rebounding,” they’ve said it with respect to a single player; (2) one thing I’ve learned over the years is that when every single person disagrees with me about a specific subject, it might possibly mean that I’m wrong, not that all of them are.
You can see it however you want. Two things though–(1) It doesn’t help you to win arguments to incorrectly characterize what the other side said. No one in this argument has said that JB “improves players [note: players is plural] with respect to defense and rebounding,” they’ve said it with respect to a single player; (2) one thing I’ve learned over the years is that when every single person disagrees with me about a specific subject, it might possibly mean that I’m wrong, not that all of them are.
That’s assuming that every person disagreeing with you is objective. In this case, we are talking about people with extreme bias, and borderline infatuation…
C’mon. Dylan is someone with “extreme bias and borderline infatuation?” I am? The guys at Synergy who charted defensive efficiency numbers are? The people in this thread who dare to disagree with you about Jordan Morgan are motivated solely by bias and infatuation?
You can do what you want. I’ll just say this–sometimes, acknowledging that you might be in error on a particular subject gains you more in the way of overall credibility than does characterizing everyone else as irrational and/or biased.
One thing I would add, literally no one in here is saying Beilein is a great defensive coach. Every coach has their strengths and weaknesses. Some teams can’t shoot, other teams turn the ball over all the time and others foul too often, etc.
I think the defensive problems have been exaggerated over the last few years because of youth, but they are certainly a concern.
People are only saying Jordan Morgan is a pretty clear example of improvement on the defensive end of the floor over four years.
For MHoops1 and others, there is no point arguing when nothing – literally, nothing, not stats, not logic, nothing – can change the other’s position one iota. Sometimes the only winning move is not to play. I have stopped reading certain posters, though I occasionally glean something of what they’re saying from reading other people’s posts, and I waste a lot less time.
C'mon. Dylan is someone with "extreme bias and borderline infatuation?" I am? The guys at Synergy who charted defensive efficiency numbers are? The people in this thread who dare to disagree with you about Jordan Morgan are motivated solely by bias and infatuation?You can do what you want. I’ll just say this–sometimes, acknowledging that you might be in error on a particular subject gains you more in the way of overall credibility than does characterizing everyone else as irrational and/or biased.
Dylan has a job, to promote UM basketball, so I understand that he is obligated to a certain extent. I know that you appear on UM related sites from time to time as well, so once again, your ability to be objective is compromised. The fan base in general here is extremely biased, as am I to a certain degree. When we get a good portion of fans claiming that Matta isn’t a good coach, while JB is great, and that they wouldn’t trade JB for any other coach. When people on this site were proclaiming DJ Wilson to be a 2 and done out of HS… that tells me what Im working with. These things are absurd
Furthermore, I really don’t care about what you, or anybody else thinks about my credibility. I KNOW basketball. I’ve played it at a higher level than most here, coached it, and helped develop talent (the kids are the ones that truly deserve the credit). So I don’t need the approval of anyone here, and vice versa. Just here to engage in basketball dialogue about a team and university that I love. I don’t want to win a popularity contest, just want to have objective basketball talk. It’s just never been in my DNA to back down when I know Im correct or have legitimate, objective points, neither in my days as an athlete or my professional capacity…just not built in that manner.
One thing I would add, literally no one in here is saying Beilein is a great defensive coach. Every coach has their strengths and weaknesses. Some teams can't shoot, other teams turn the ball over all the time and others foul too often, etc.I think the defensive problems have been exaggerated over the last few years because of youth, but they are certainly a concern.
People are only saying Jordan Morgan is a pretty clear example of improvement on the defensive end of the floor over four years.
Thats a big part of my issue - why is it we have to be diplomatic and say “no one is saying Beilein is a great defensive coach”…pardon my French, but no shit.
The fact is JB is a bad defensive coach. So if we’re going to say JB is an offensive genius, why not tell it like it is without all the politically correct mumbo jumbo…the guy is bad on defense, plain and simple. Sick of people trying to rationalize with youth, size, experience…I mean, we’re talking about 15 years of this guy at a high major level, and NOT ONCE fielding a good defense. Who the hell gets a 15 year pass for anything in sports?
I’m convinced that Michigan could win the National Championship and you would be disappointed because its defense was ranked 89th or something like that.
We’re done, Matt. You can carry forth with your I’m right and everyone else is wrong because i “KNOW” basketball and have played and coached it mantra. I’d point out that I’m 100% sure that Brady Hoke and Rich Rodriguez played and coached football at a higher level than did you, yet you surely disagreed with them, and that the same is true of Laval Jordan, Bacari Alexander, and yes, John Beilein, but you’d doubtless miss the irony.
You’re not here to have an objective discussion. Nobody could accuse Dylan, who runs an independent site which is hardly his “job,” and who has made numerous critiques of our defensive and rebounding efforts, as being biased towards ignoring problems with the program. I’d defend my credibility as well–the fact that I write articles for The Wolverine from time to time hardly damages my ability to be objective–but you’re not here to listen.You’re here to state your position and rip those who disagree. News flash–there are others of us who KNOW the game too. We just don’t think that our opinions are unassailable, or delivered from on high.
Enjoy your “discussions” with others. Have a nice evening.
I'm convinced that Michigan could win the National Championship and you would be disappointed because its defense was ranked 89th or something like that.
Doesn’t really matter much because that will never happen. Kenpom stats dictate that you must have a good defense to win a championship, but only an average/above average offense. Offense wins games, defense wins championships. That’s the way it has always been and that’s the way it always will be. JB is the college version of Mike Antoni
We're done, Matt. You can carry forth with your I'm right and everyone else is wrong because i "KNOW" basketball and have played and coached it mantra. I'd point out that I'm 100% sure that Brady Hoke and Rich Rodriguez played and coached football at a higher level than did you, yet you surely disagreed with them, and that the same is true of Laval Jordan, Bacari Alexander, and yes, John Beilein, but you'd doubtless miss the irony.You’re not here to have an objective discussion. Nobody could accuse Dylan, who runs an independent site which is hardly his “job,” and who has made numerous critiques of our defensive and rebounding efforts, as being biased towards ignoring problems with the program. I’d defend my credibility as well–the fact that I write articles for The Wolverine from time to time hardly damages my ability to be objective–but you’re not here to listen.You’re here to state your position and rip those who disagree. News flash–there are others of us who KNOW the game too. We just don’t think that our opinions are unassailable, or delivered from on high.
Enjoy your “discussions” with others. Have a nice evening.
Glad to know you’ve given me approval to leave the dinner table. Lol
MattD has to be a very elaborate troll, right? I just can’t believe he’s a real person. He has to be 12 or 13, based on the self-reverence and antagonism.
Touché, MattD.