College Basketball Open Discussion

I was pretty convinced at the time that the '04 NIT run was the start of something special.


The February 15th version of Michigan is a completely different team than the one that played Oakland and PSU. It might as well be two different seasons. Michigan was still figuring itself out back then. PSU was the first legitimate opponent that Michigan played and I think the game would look differently if it was played today. I also think Michigan would beat Oakland by 50 if they played again. I trust Mike Smith to handle ball pressure and Michigan has other players that are more than capable of helping him out despite the lack of players designated as “guards”


The win over Hawaii was the loudest I had heard Crisler in my 4 years at UM (2000-2004).


You are very much not alone in that regard! Still remember watching that title game against Rutgers in my tiny apartment bedroom instead of doing homework.


I had the front page of the sports section from the NIT title hanging in my locker for a couple years in Jr high/early HS lol


A post was split to a new topic: Boston College fires Jim Christian

Livers. Irvin was a really good player, but I think Livers is scary good. I want Isaiah to shoot more, I sometimes wanted Irvin to shoot less, but he didn’t have the luxury to do that.


I distinctly remember being simultaneously excited about the run, but confused at why my dad wasn’t excited :laughing:


Somewhat of a tough comparison since Irvin was forced into a role he wasn’t great at, and he never really found a groove with it until the very end of his career. But, Livers is way better at their optimal role, so I’d say Livers.

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Wasn’t the thing with Irvin his back? He gutted it out quite respectably, and great work as a complementary senior on both ends, but that took his range, no?


I thought it was going to be a springboard to the NCAA tournament in the next season but little did we know…

Funny how our expectations has changed since then. We now expect to compete for the B1G title and deep run in the NCAA with an occasional F4 appearance. We can thank John Beilein for raising the program’s prestige.


I’m OK with saying we are a totally different team. But we still only have 2 guards that actually play and only 2 players actually comfortable getting us into the offense against pressure defense. Until Zeb gets playable, that’s who we are.

Same. Sadly Amaker just could not develop talent.

Wisconsin and, I think MSU in 02-03 were pretty wild.

or coach offense or manage roster construction

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Thought provoking question. Good post.

The answer is Livers given his overall performance and contributions to some great teams. Irvin was always just falling short of our hopes for him as a player on both ends of the court.

However, the caveat that MUST be mentioned is that Irvin was asked to do a lot of things that probably weren’t suited for his strengths. He had to help carry some mediocre teams, he had to play a lot of PF when he was better suited to SF, he had to guard the opponents toughest wing, he had to consume a lot of usage. I think in an alternate universe where you flipped their years at Michigan they would look almost identical. Irvin never shot the ball as well as Livers, but I think overall they are similar players.


I have to wonder if Daniel Horton and Dion Harris career would’ve turned out if they played on a better program. Horton would’ve been lethal in PnR situation. Harris would’ve been good as an off the ball G but was forced to be a primary creator.

Horton was so good as a freshman. Then he just, stayed that good, or got worse.

In better programs they would both have looked much better.

His senior year was his best year. He shot 39% from 3s and was 90% in FT shooting. He was just so good and was part of a big reason why Michigan won 22 games. Too bad that Michigan never got over the hump under TA but now that Beilein has changed the program trajectory, I can look back and laugh at how inept they have been under Ellerbe/Amaker.


I would say Beilein restored Michigan basketball to its historic place. We made the national title game in the 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s. IIRC, the only other school to do that was UCLA.

I grew up watching Fisher’s teams and then came on campus right on time for Ellerbe. Ugh.