I think it’s funny how people want to constantly bring up Frankie’s game against CSU as a season tent-pole and since the game ended, very few people seem to remember Jones’ 21/9 @ OSU, without Hunter, when our entire season was on life support, a game in which he was the best player on the floor, in a game that included EJ Liddell and Malakhi Branham. Like, this board was shopping for NIT tickets at that game’s tip-off. (would also point to his double-doubles in wins over Purdue and @Iowa - I think it is very clear, at least to me, that he was a massive factor in the wins that got us into the tournament).
I wonder if Collins’ game again CSU is always brought up because he was basically bad or on the bench for the entirety of the season other than that game? We always say he won that game, but never, like, mention Eli getting a 16/9 or combining for nearly 40 points with Hunter.
See, judging by this and what everyone else was saying, you expected Jones to at least be an average defender who could provide some steals to cover for his defensive weaknesses. But he was absolutely atrocious defending the perimeter. It felt like every time he contested a 3 it was a guaranteed bucket. I didn’t think Smith’s D was this glaringly bad but again, he had Livers and Franz.
I agree with that but nonetheless Jones was called an excellent point of attack defender, and it turned out that he was the opposite. That’s not the only reason why the defense wasn’t great, but if this discussion is still anchored in preseason expectations, well, Jones was thought to be a defensive plus and was the opposite, which is relevant.
Maybe a nitpick but I think Livers is owed a few more >.
Michigan dropped 4 pts per 100 on O and 10 on D. And at least some of that drop on D caused the drop on O given the value of starting possessions on misses vs makes.
Would def be interested in what a good estimate for the value of scheme is there too. Does 3 points better sound right?
I’d tend to think that our defensive struggle was less swapping a poor defender at PG for another (regardless of whether he was supposed to be better than that) and more the fact we went from a team that started 3 plus defenders and had a major minute 4th off the bench to having 1 total plus defender, and thus the incremental difference between Smith and Jones is near impossible to realistically quantify.
You might have missed it but I praised Jones for turning the corner and his performance in that game in one of comments that preceded the one you replied to.
I wonder if Collins’ game again CSU is always brought up because he was basically bad or on the bench for the entirety of the season other than that game?
Maybe it´s because our defense looked like absolute dog all year and once Frankie was slotted in we suddenly looked like an average defense in the tournament, For all the hand wringing about his supposed ´bad´ play why did he not have, like, five turnovers against the team that creates the most turnovers in the country in Tenn? In fact, he didńt just survive, his ball handling ability provided a ´shockingly´ steady hand against Tenn when the picture that was being painted was that he was a virtual zero on that end.
I gave Jones his due flowers, why do some of you refuse to acknowledge Frankie´s impact in the tournament?
I really don’t think that’s something that I said at least. His defense was about his length, gambling for steals and rebounds. The scouting report seemed pretty accurate.
Either way, the biggest defensive issue for Michigan was at the 4 not the 1 IMO.
Frankie was great defensively. No one is saying he didn’t play well in the NCAA Tournament. You just propped up the idea that he “led Michigan to the Sweet 16” which is what people are disagreeing with.
Either way, it is water under the bridge.
I just meant to start this whole discussion to encourage people to think more about Michigan as a whole when looking at the season and start to think about how the team might fit together than on an individual basis.
I think almost every reason that U-M “underachieved” last year was due to team construct type of things that were tough to fight against (inability to matchup defensively, youth, leadership, experience, lack of rotation-caliber players, etc.) more than individual shortcomings.
It’s not that Moussa, Caleb or DeVante’ weren’t good, it is that they didn’t fit together in an ideal way.
I don’t really play the “change AdjEM by X game”, but I think it would have been an improvement.
I also don’t think U-M had any other option other than to play Moussa as much as possible, FWIW. Reality is though that it just never quite worked defensively with that set up.
Yeah seems like a massive problem was just having 5 and 1/3 playable players (the 1/3 being the days they got anything from Terrence). I think (hope?) that issue has improved a little? Like how do we do if we aren’t just locked by roster construction into giving Caleb 30+ minutes a night regardless of play quality?
I’m not wed to AdjEM. Would they have been a top 15 team? A top 5 team? It doesn’t have to be Caleb either, that just seemed like a clever workaround given that he literally played for the team and you’d be replacing Moussa as a bad fit with Caleb, who afaik you always thought should be a 4 in CBB anyway, and gives M a stretch 4 to go with Hunter. If “fit” is the limitation, then whoever you’d pick should be both obviously limited in some sense but also have a huge impact on the team being better.
IMO, if the baseline is 2021, the problem was mostly just talent. Franz and Livers and Chaundee were way better than their replacements. If the baseline is “the best version of 2022 given the talent they had”, then I think, sure, fit is the other factor that could’ve led to more wins.
First one Moussa is the low man and he should have been there earlier. Hunter also didn’t really play drop coverage there really, but he was guarding a Murray so that’s possibly understandable. Second is Hunter, he didn’t play both guys there at all.
Not meaning to single you out, if that wasn’t clear. I think those reports filtered through from a national guy on down of serious on-ball defense at that camp.
In the end I don’t know if the bigger defensive issues were at the 4 or the 1, but if we’re still just talking about offseason hype, the Jones hype was in part thanks to that report of serious on-ball defense. Was Diabate a bigger disappointment on D than Jones? I don’t know. Different discussion, but maybe also a good discussion. Juwan tried a whole bunch of tricks other than drop coverage, for example. I wonder if that was to cover up for HD, for MD, or DJ?
Fun game, @eric_shap, thanks. I’d say the frontcourt shares blame in both, but mostly HD in the first – you can see DJ react once HD slices back away from the ball – and mostly MD in the second.