I’m probably in the minority, but I wish JB would get ‘fired up’ more often…I think our team lacks energy at times. The allowance of players making decisions is much more troublesome in my view.
I chalk it more up to Spike making a half-hearted joke after a big win.
Regarding the 3 at the end of the 2013 Wisconsin game, the players were instructed to foul.Regarding Beilein “flipping out” in the huddle against Tennessee, I think you’re exaggerating. There is also no mention of anyone not being able to understand him.
There are valid criticisms of Beilein–his lack of salesmanship, his preference (seemingly) of skill and fundamentals over athletic ability and aggression at a position (the 5) where the latter seem like more of a need for Michigan’s type of team, his 2-foul autobenching when depth should not allow that, and I’m sure there are a few other things. But let’s at least keep the criticisms (and the praise) rooted in reality.
Where am I exaggerating? "“We kind of let him go on his spiel there and then we have to go huddle up again after,” Albrecht says. “There’s so much going on in the game and he has so much to say, and we’ve only got a minute in this timeout here.”
So they waste the timeout letting the coach “go on his spiel”, then they huddle up and figure out what they have to do? The players shouldn’t have to coach themselves. I don’t see Izzo’s teams making similar end-of-game errors that Beilein’s do. Izzo is the general and everyone follows his orders.
I believe he does "miss" on some top recruits. But maybe this is because he first recruits character!. He wants players with good solid family backgrounds. Kids that are humble and want to work hard. Kids with morals and strong religious beliefs. This is what I love most about this guy. When was the last time JB had to dismiss a player? Ever?Agree with the earlier points you made, but how does this point explain missing on Booker, Blackmon, Kennard, Grandstaff, Bates-Diop, Bluiett (ok, that was a weird one, maybe he gets a pass there), Coleman, Thorton, Ali…this list is so long I can’t begin to remember them all. I don’t doubt there are a fair number of kids that he doesn’t touch for various reasons (Josh Jackson), but I don’t see those kids headed to MSU or OSU either, and Izzo and Matta seem to do a lot better with what’s available than Beilein does.
The analogy I can think of is Beilein is the brilliant R&D scientist with no sales ability. He makes great things in the lab, but not enough people buy his product because he can’t sell what he’s cooking.
JB has his faults, as do much most coaches, but he's a good coach overall. When he has time to prepare his teams for a reasonable time, the team generally is well prepared and performs well.That’s true, and I should add that to his strengths. He’s like Meyer or Paterno in the respect that, “Give him time to prepare, and you’re toast”. The preparation for the Syracuse Final Four game was phenomenal. SU was probably the better team, and Michigan just shellshocked them in the first half.
You don’t see Izzo’s teams making the same end of game mistakes? Did you watch the Minnesota game a week and a half ago, where MSU blew a 6 point lead in the last 1/2 minute, allowing the very same 3 point barrage that NW had against us, AND actually gave Minnesota a chance to win via a 4 point play in regulation where they weren’t supposed to foul and did anyway on the shot? Or how about the Maryland game in East Lansing, when Wells hit a 3 with 2 seconds to go to force OT…sound familiar? Or the Illinois game in East Lansing, where MSU came out of the TO after the technical and forced up a terrible shot (according to Izzo) with ample time to go, down 1? Do you think everyone was following the General’s orders in those games? If so, the General issued some pretty crazy orders.
At no point in that article does it say, or even imply, that the Michigan players had to coach themselves, either in the Tennessee game, or at any other time. I’m sorry, but that’s way over the top.
Oh come on, you can’t be serious, these are apples and oranges situations
Maryland: “It was my choice not to foul at the end of the game,” [Izzo] said. “Maybe I’ll change, but I haven’t done that for 20 years. We’ve done OK.” Note that he didn’t ask his players.
Minnesota: both fouls happened in the flow of the game, and were the result of good offense by Minnesota. There’s a difference between players making dumb mistakes forced by good play from the other team and the coach not having a plan in place.
Illinois: Offense requires execution, it’s not the same as saying, “we are going to foul, this is our plan,” or “we are going to play defense, this is our plan.”
I wholeheartedly disagree with your assessment of the Tennessee game. Beilein started ranting and no one got anything out of it. Just read Spike’s quote. The players coached themselves.
I'm probably in the minority, but I wish JB would get 'fired up' more often.......I think our team lacks energy at times. The allowance of players making decisions is much more troublesome in my view.
Right, the issue isn’t screaming/losing his cool, it’s allowing the inmates to run the asylum and the lack of leadership come crunch time. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that his young team has choked in crunch time over and over again this year.
Regarding the 3 at the end of the 2013 Wisconsin game, the players were instructed to foul.Regarding Beilein “flipping out” in the huddle against Tennessee, I think you’re exaggerating. There is also no mention of anyone not being able to understand him.
There are valid criticisms of Beilein–his lack of salesmanship, his preference (seemingly) of skill and fundamentals over athletic ability and aggression at a position (the 5) where the latter seem like more of a need for Michigan’s type of team, his 2-foul autobenching when depth should not allow that, and I’m sure there are a few other things. But let’s at least keep the criticisms (and the praise) rooted in reality.
Where am I exaggerating? "“We kind of let him go on his spiel there and then we have to go huddle up again after,” Albrecht says. “There’s so much going on in the game and he has so much to say, and we’ve only got a minute in this timeout here.”
So they waste the timeout letting the coach “go on his spiel”, then they huddle up and figure out what they have to do? The players shouldn’t have to coach themselves. I don’t see Izzo’s teams making similar end-of-game errors that Beilein’s do. Izzo is the general and everyone follows his orders.
I believe he does "miss" on some top recruits. But maybe this is because he first recruits character!. He wants players with good solid family backgrounds. Kids that are humble and want to work hard. Kids with morals and strong religious beliefs. This is what I love most about this guy. When was the last time JB had to dismiss a player? Ever?Agree with the earlier points you made, but how does this point explain missing on Booker, Blackmon, Kennard, Grandstaff, Bates-Diop, Bluiett (ok, that was a weird one, maybe he gets a pass there), Coleman, Thorton, Ali…this list is so long I can’t begin to remember them all. I don’t doubt there are a fair number of kids that he doesn’t touch for various reasons (Josh Jackson), but I don’t see those kids headed to MSU or OSU either, and Izzo and Matta seem to do a lot better with what’s available than Beilein does.
The analogy I can think of is Beilein is the brilliant R&D scientist with no sales ability. He makes great things in the lab, but not enough people buy his product because he can’t sell what he’s cooking.
JB has his faults, as do much most coaches, but he's a good coach overall. When he has time to prepare his teams for a reasonable time, the team generally is well prepared and performs well.That’s true, and I should add that to his strengths. He’s like Meyer or Paterno in the respect that, “Give him time to prepare, and you’re toast”. The preparation for the Syracuse Final Four game was phenomenal. SU was probably the better team, and Michigan just shellshocked them in the first half.
You don’t see Izzo’s teams making the same end of game mistakes? Did you watch the Minnesota game a week and a half ago, where MSU blew a 6 point lead in the last 1/2 minute, allowing the very same 3 point barrage that NW had against us, AND actually gave Minnesota a chance to win via a 4 point play in regulation where they weren’t supposed to foul and did anyway on the shot? Or how about the Maryland game in East Lansing, when Wells hit a 3 with 2 seconds to go to force OT…sound familiar? Or the Illinois game in East Lansing, where MSU came out of the TO after the technical and forced up a terrible shot (according to Izzo) with ample time to go, down 1? Do you think everyone was following the General’s orders in those games? If so, the General issued some pretty crazy orders.
At no point in that article does it say, or even imply, that the Michigan players had to coach themselves, either in the Tennessee game, or at any other time. I’m sorry, but that’s way over the top.
Oh come on, you can’t be serious, these are apples and oranges situations
Maryland: “It was my choice not to foul at the end of the game,” [Izzo] said. “Maybe I’ll change, but I haven’t done that for 20 years. We’ve done OK.” Note that he didn’t ask his players.
Minnesota: both fouls happened in the flow of the game, and were the result of good offense by Minnesota. There’s a difference between players making dumb mistakes forced by good play from the other team and the coach not having a plan in place.
Illinois: Offense requires execution, it’s not the same as saying, “we are going to foul, this is our plan,” or “we are going to play defense, this is our plan.”
I wholeheartedly disagree with your assessment of the Tennessee game. Beilein started ranting and no one got anything out of it. Just read Spike’s
quote. The players coached themselves.
So when confronted with actual evidence, you just double down on your misguided position?
So when MSU loses with idiotic end-of-game plays, it’s the players not executing, but when Michigan loses it’s because Beilein chokes?
Got it.
Regarding the 3 at the end of the 2013 Wisconsin game, the players were instructed to foul.Regarding Beilein “flipping out” in the huddle against Tennessee, I think you’re exaggerating. There is also no mention of anyone not being able to understand him.
There are valid criticisms of Beilein–his lack of salesmanship, his preference (seemingly) of skill and fundamentals over athletic ability and aggression at a position (the 5) where the latter seem like more of a need for Michigan’s type of team, his 2-foul autobenching when depth should not allow that, and I’m sure there are a few other things. But let’s at least keep the criticisms (and the praise) rooted in reality.
Where am I exaggerating? "“We kind of let him go on his spiel there and then we have to go huddle up again after,” Albrecht says. “There’s so much going on in the game and he has so much to say, and we’ve only got a minute in this timeout here.”
So they waste the timeout letting the coach “go on his spiel”, then they huddle up and figure out what they have to do? The players shouldn’t have to coach themselves. I don’t see Izzo’s teams making similar end-of-game errors that Beilein’s do. Izzo is the general and everyone follows his orders.
I believe he does "miss" on some top recruits. But maybe this is because he first recruits character!. He wants players with good solid family backgrounds. Kids that are humble and want to work hard. Kids with morals and strong religious beliefs. This is what I love most about this guy. When was the last time JB had to dismiss a player? Ever?Agree with the earlier points you made, but how does this point explain missing on Booker, Blackmon, Kennard, Grandstaff, Bates-Diop, Bluiett (ok, that was a weird one, maybe he gets a pass there), Coleman, Thorton, Ali…this list is so long I can’t begin to remember them all. I don’t doubt there are a fair number of kids that he doesn’t touch for various reasons (Josh Jackson), but I don’t see those kids headed to MSU or OSU either, and Izzo and Matta seem to do a lot better with what’s available than Beilein does.
The analogy I can think of is Beilein is the brilliant R&D scientist with no sales ability. He makes great things in the lab, but not enough people buy his product because he can’t sell what he’s cooking.
JB has his faults, as do much most coaches, but he's a good coach overall. When he has time to prepare his teams for a reasonable time, the team generally is well prepared and performs well.That’s true, and I should add that to his strengths. He’s like Meyer or Paterno in the respect that, “Give him time to prepare, and you’re toast”. The preparation for the Syracuse Final Four game was phenomenal. SU was probably the better team, and Michigan just shellshocked them in the first half.
You don’t see Izzo’s teams making the same end of game mistakes? Did you watch the Minnesota game a week and a half ago, where MSU blew a 6 point lead in the last 1/2 minute, allowing the very same 3 point barrage that NW had against us, AND actually gave Minnesota a chance to win via a 4 point play in regulation where they weren’t supposed to foul and did anyway on the shot? Or how about the Maryland game in East Lansing, when Wells hit a 3 with 2 seconds to go to force OT…sound familiar? Or the Illinois game in East Lansing, where MSU came out of the TO after the technical and forced up a terrible shot (according to Izzo) with ample time to go, down 1? Do you think everyone was following the General’s orders in those games? If so, the General issued some pretty crazy orders.
At no point in that article does it say, or even imply, that the Michigan players had to coach themselves, either in the Tennessee game, or at any other time. I’m sorry, but that’s way over the top.
Oh come on, you can’t be serious, these are apples and oranges situations
Maryland: “It was my choice not to foul at the end of the game,” [Izzo] said. “Maybe I’ll change, but I haven’t done that for 20 years. We’ve done OK.” Note that he didn’t ask his players.
Minnesota: both fouls happened in the flow of the game, and were the result of good offense by Minnesota. There’s a difference between players making dumb mistakes forced by good play from the other team and the coach not having a plan in place.
Illinois: Offense requires execution, it’s not the same as saying, “we are going to foul, this is our plan,” or “we are going to play defense, this is our plan.”
I wholeheartedly disagree with your assessment of the Tennessee game. Beilein started ranting and no one got anything out of it. Just read Spike’s quote. The players coached themselves.
I’m very serious
In the Maryland game, Izzo made a decision not to foul up 3 with under 10 seconds to go…the very same one Beilein made in regulation against Northwestern without consulting anyone. It was, IMO, the wrong one, as was Beilein’s decision, and neither worked. Beilein considered changing his approach in OT after watching it fail, and solicited input from his players. Izzo, against Minnesota, continued the same losing strategy. I guess it’s your opinion that stubbornly persisting in a strategy which didn’t work is better than reconsidering and/or asking for input because it makes Izzo “the General.” I could not disagree more.
In the Minnesota game, Schilling clearly didn’t follow the plan; he fouled when Izzo’s strategy, as set forth in the quote you provided, was to not do so. And yet, you’re saying that everyone follows the General’s orders. You’re also saying that you don’t see Izzo’s teams make end of game mistakes…and yet here was Schilling doing just that. And, if you think that either Trice’s shot or Dawson’s against Illinois, both coming after time outs, were guys following the General’s orders, well, I’m guessing that if you ask the General, he’d disagree.
I’ve seen a lot of criticisms leveled at Beilein on this forum and others. Some are fair, some are not. I have never seen anyone claim that Beilein’s teams are coaching themselves during games–not even from his most ardent detractors–until now. There’s a reason why no one has claimed it–it’s not accurate. With all due respect, you’re badly misreading Spike’s quote and fitting it into a narrative.
Have you guys heard of Phil Jackson’s ploy of not letting his team use timeouts in certain situations because he wants them to be able to figure things out on the court in the heat of battle? We have a young team that is not making the NCAA tournament this year. Maybe (and I am 100% just speculating here), Beilein viewed the Northwestern game as a learning experience for his young team, which would have a long-term benefit. Because the fact of the matter is that, according to KenPom’s data, there is literally a 1% difference in outcome between fouling and not fouling in that situation (and in fact not fouling leads to wins more often). The actual strategy matters a lot less than people think it does. Maybe giving the team a sense of ownership in the outcome had greater benefit, particularly in the long-term.
If Beilein was a guy that chokes under the pressure of certain situations, then how do you explain his outperformance in the NCAA tournament, when the bright lights and pressure are at their absolute peak? Note he’s not just above average on that second list, he is #1.
http://wp.bracketscience.com/?p=668
As for the “Beilein is an R&D scientist that can’t sell” analogy…have you ever met Beilein? The guy is razor sharp, and all class…all substance, little sizzle. If there’s a sales flaw, it’s that (a) he’s not “flashy” or, perhaps, “cool” to a teenager, and (b) he’s not willing to beg for any player. My casual observation is that he connects extremely well with dads, but probably not as much with kids…I’d bet he would have been a better recruiter 20-30 years ago. All that said, I do think showing top top kids the “love” they typically get and need is not congruent with the culture of his program, which is about teamwork, unselfishness, hard work, etc. so that’s just always going to make selling elite kids a tougher proposition. They want to be picked up in a limo, and they want to be treated like the man. JB doesn’t do that. While I would absolutely love elite talent to be parading through Crisler, I can live with the approach because it lives up to a different ideal.
(Then there’s also the cheating aspect - or lack thereof - that we should at least mention in a discussion like this)
I'm probably in the minority, but I wish JB would get 'fired up' more often.......I think our team lacks energy at times. The allowance of players making decisions is much more troublesome in my view.
I got ridiculed on another website bringing this up. In crunch time, you do not ask your players what strategy to deploy. You are the Chief. You’re paid millions of dollars and have 2 hours a day for 6 months to teach them what they SHOULD do.
IMO Decisions on different end of the game scenarios, such as fouling up 3, should be decided among the coaching staff well before the game starts.
I don't think it's a coincidence that his young team has choked in crunch time over and over again this year.
Key words being “this year” (followed closely by “young team”). Do you think there are any extenuating circumstances to the team’s performance “this year” that might be unrelated to Beilein’s abilities?
I’ll even spell it out for you…in addition to the lack of talent on the floor for reasons outside Beilein’s control (or, even, as a result of his development of some guys playing NBA basketball right now), how about this…
Michigan has 3 of the top 5 guys in the B1G in minutes per game. Do you think that may be a contributing factor to the team wilting late?
So I guess we should play Lonergan or Dakich more minutes? You must surely agree with that, yes?
I don't think it's a coincidence that his young team has choked in crunch time over and over again this year.Key words being “this year” (followed closely by “young team”). Do you think there are any extenuating circumstances to the team’s performance “this year” that might be unrelated to Beilein’s abilities?
I’ll even spell it out for you…in addition to the lack of talent on the floor for reasons outside Beilein’s control (or, even, as a result of his development of some guys playing NBA basketball right now), how about this…
Michigan has 3 of the top 5 guys in the B1G in minutes per game. Do you think that may be a contributing factor to the team wilting late?
So I guess we should play Lonergan or Dakich more minutes? You must surely agree with that, yes?
I would agree with this if we didn’t lose to EMU and NJIT. We were bad before the depth got thin.
Well, Walton wasn’t healthy, but certainly we all think Michigan should have won those games regardless. Keep in mind we had Charlotte last year. You’d be off base if you made too much of that game. Maybe it’s simply a pattern of this staff that each team is up and down early until it figures itself out. Especially with so many new players on the floor.
We also had Syracuse and Villanova this year, so there was plenty of potential.
I don't think it's a coincidence that his young team has choked in crunch time over and over again this year.Key words being “this year” (followed closely by “young team”). Do you think there are any extenuating circumstances to the team’s performance “this year” that might be unrelated to Beilein’s abilities?
I’ll even spell it out for you…in addition to the lack of talent on the floor for reasons outside Beilein’s control (or, even, as a result of his development of some guys playing NBA basketball right now), how about this…
Michigan has 3 of the top 5 guys in the B1G in minutes per game. Do you think that may be a contributing factor to the team wilting late?
So I guess we should play Lonergan or Dakich more minutes? You must surely agree with that, yes?
Yes not having pro talent on the court as they did the past couple years no doubt has contributed to their faltering down the stretch. Yes minutes played for some players is far too many but this is the situation right now. Of course there are other questions about Beilein and his 2 foul autobench, the numbers this year with 2 fouls and autobench are pretty damning. Yes some players can’t play with 2 fouls but I watch other games and coaches are much more flexible as compared to Beilein. No, Lonergan and Dakich played plenty last week in a very winnable game. If Beilein is going to be so strict with autobench and ask his players in late game situations what they should do he should probably rethink that whole process. He gets paid millions to make tough decisions and he wants a collaborative effort with the players to make decisions like that?
Well, autobench is a different issue. I agree that I’d like Beilein to relax his autobench rules for guys that aren’t already playing a ton of minutes (because those guys need the rest anyway). Particularly in his system, which preaches not fouling, and this year, when depth is thin, it would make sense to gamble on guys not getting additional fouls in order to keep a higher quality lineup on the floor for more minutes. But again, that’s offset by the fact that certain guys are getting a TON of minutes regardless, so something’s got to give. Hopefully this is irrelevant in future years, as we won’t always have such a perfect storm leading to a thin roster.
Well, autobench is a different issue. I agree that I'd like Beilein to relax his autobench rules for guys that aren't already playing a ton of minutes (because those guys need the rest anyway). Particularly in his system, which preaches not fouling, and this year, when depth is thin, it would make sense to gamble on guys not getting additional fouls in order to keep a higher quality lineup on the floor for more minutes. But again, that's offset by the fact that certain guys are getting a TON of minutes regardless, so something's got to give. Hopefully this is irrelevant in future years, as we won't always have such a perfect storm leading to a thin roster.
I agree with the point you made in this type of year it would have been great if Beilein was less strict in his 2 foul autobench. Tourney hopes were dashed over a month ago, it would have been nice to see some of these guys learn how to play with 2 fouls.
Interesting data point RE: Auto Bench: Tum Tum Nairn just picked up his third foul with 6 minutes to play in the second half.
Interesting data point RE: Auto Bench: Tum Tum Nairn just picked up his third foul with 6 minutes to play in the second half.
Not really relevant to our team as MAAR, Spike, Walton, Irvin, Levert all have foul rates much lower than Nairn. Basically auto bench as it relates to UM is a pretty dumb move.
Now a foul or defend situation for Izzo. Lets see if they manage to not foul the shooter this time.
LOL. They almost did foul the shooter. Tough call – could have gone either way.
This game just keeps getting worse. Valentine intentional foul up two one-upped by Ferrell splitting the FTs at the line.
Well, so much for Izzo=Patton/Lee/MacArthur argument 
Valentine just fouled when MSU was up 2 because he thought they were up 3.