Just for fun, what position do you thought Moritz Wagner would play when he committed? 
The two?
I would argue that almost every recruit is sold on the fact that they are going to play a position ‘down’ from where they end up. Michigan is a bit different because of how perimeter oriented certain elements of the offense are, but there are obviously real defensive challenges that come with that (i.e. GR3 at the 4, etc.).
I think I am one of the most skeptical people about Wagner’s ability to play anything but the 5. I can’t remember if I saw Mo as a 4 as a recruit. Probably not as I did not have a strong opinion on him either way. I love Mo but he is an odd player. I think the dynamic created by his height, 3 point shot, and very strong first step–which lead to straight line drives create havoc for the opposition. I don’t think he is a sophisticated perimeter player, however, as he is either shooting it, driving it right, or adjusting with a behind the back drive to the left. Those moves are great but they are executed with head down with a lack of court awareness…Defensively, I seriously question his ability to guard 4’s–for someone with quick first step forward he does not anticipate well and seems to lack lateral agility–very stiff laterally and very slow to contest shots. I am not sure about CC. I don’t mind entertaining the possibility of him playing the 4 because I trust the way his 3 point shot looks and he is extremely fluid for someone 6’10".
People probably will see this as controversial but at this point I Beleive CC has a better chance of playing 4 than Wagner in their COLLEGE careers. Some of the positioning will depend on his ability to gain weight and also the players surrounding him.
Yes, and then he went on about how the coaches see him as Wagner’s replacement. Tell me, does Wagner play the 4 or the 5 at Michigan?
I do appreciate the point you are making. But the plan with Wagner is to try to become a 4!
I don’t see how you can say this considering that CC is coming in with two other guys who would probably be best suited at the four. The current roster lacks that and that’s why Wagner might try to play some minutes at the four. And the fact that Wagner is far more skilled (and was at the same time in his development) as Castleton.
The important point for me is that, like Wagner or Wilson or McGary or Sims or Pittsnoggle – i.e., any “big” who played the 4 or 5 under JB but had perimeter skills – Castleton will get every opportunity and excellent coaching at Michigan to hone and display his ball-handling and shooting skills no matter his position.
I think he’s more likely to play 5 long term because (1) that’s definitely where he’s starting out, (2) he’s huge, and (3) the roster composition.
(4) There are far better mismatch opportunities there because most teams are playing a 6-7 type of guy at the four these days.
Good point. It’s also probably helpful for the pro prospects, as it’s more important for players to show skills necessary to play down a position than to actually do it. Even consider DJ – he is in the pros right now in large part because of games he played as a small ball 5 (Purdue in the B1G tourney, OSU in the NCAAs, etc.).
It is hard/ pointless to anticipate position fit based upon what we anticipate the future relative skills/ fit of 2018 recruits…Iggy and Johns might be really good at playing the 3…We might get a monster 5 or Teske and Davis might develop into guys that must be at the 5…Iggy or Johns might go pro early…Too many moving parts to comment meaningfully so I am not going to make an empty prediction like that which is necessarily based upon arbitrary factors…I will note that we have certain players that are locked into 5. We will likely have junior bigs in Davis and Teske that in no way shape or form look equipped to play the 4 but who might be needed on the floor…
All of this is to say I do not think CC is your average rim protecting 5. There is something more there and he is not necessarily locked in to that position in that way that I would argue Davis, Teske, and (I think) Wagner are…Similarly I do not think Wagner is your average rim protecting 5. First, he does not protect the rim–but he plays 5 anyway. Why? Because he has serious defensive work to do to be able to play the 4. He is trying to get there, I think…I don’t think he has a better chance to acquire the defensive abilities than CC over the course of his career…That point is debatable and I will need to take a wait and see approach because CC is a question mark in that regard too. I like the way he moves, however so there is a possibility and he has stated that the 4 is what he is shooting for so…We shall see…
You could say the same thing about the 5, at least the way that Wagner plays it most of the time on offense. He plays it more like a 4, only out front instead of in the corners.
Seriously? Castleton is a 5 all day long. Rim protector is a much lacked need for us. Hopefully he can rectify some of that as he develops.
IMO, he’s a 5 with some upside to pick and pop/spot up/maybe drive off closeouts (albeit in a more basic way than Mo does) as he develops. He’s not gonna be able to stick with college 4s on the perimeter or have the perimeter skills to execute the wing position in the offense against other wings.
I think he does provide some positional upside in that you should be able to eventually play him at the 4 in order to matchup with big lineups like Swanigan/Haas, Hayes/Happ, Costello/Schilling. He’d be tall enough to guard those guys without sacrificing offensive spacing. He’s not a 4 against most of college hoops though.
CC could guard a lot of college 4’s but on offense he is a 5 all the way.
I don’t even know how this is being debated.
CC is a 5 on O and D. He can’t gaurd Brandon Johns or Iggy (example of a new stretch 4’s versatility) on the perimeter.
Sure he cant guard those kind of 4’s…but all the traditional 4’s surely he could guard.
Just like johns and iggy will have issues guarding traditional 4’s down low.
It goes both ways.
I’d say there are very very teams still running post up 4s.
And this debate is being brought to you by many of the same people, who last year at this time, were debating if D.J. Wilson could make the transition from the 5 to give us some quality minutes at the 4 to back up Robinson.
Do you think Robinson, Chatman, Wagner or Novak would be able to stop Iggy and Johns?
Do you think Iggy will be able to stop Johns? Johns/IGGy?
Iggy and Johns are going to be handful for anyone you put in front of them, I think.
I am excited that we are even having this conversation. Because it is indicative, in my mind, that JB is building an ultra versatile roster. I would not pigeon hole CC for a second just like I refused to pigeon hole DJ for two years…
Did people think DJ Wilson couldn’t play the four or couldn’t play/contribute at all? Seems like more the latter but maybe I’m misremembering.
The bigger point is that Castleton isn’t really equipped to guard players like Iggy and Johns.
Sure, literally anything can happen in the next few years. But it isn’t that crazy to say that there’s a very high probability that Castleton will play his minutes at the five during his time in Ann Arbor.
I remember a couple of different groups. One group asserted that DJ would likely not contribute. Another group asserted that JB would never play DJ at the 4 because he was not a JB 4 and JB does not play 2 bigs. I am assuming Champions is referring to the latter group but I do not in any way remember who, or care to remember, who belonged to which group.
And no, of course it is not crazy to say CC will play minutes at the 5 but I do think it is crazy to say things like “CC is a rim protecting 5(end of story)” and I especially do not agree with some of the peices of evidence that have been given for the judgment , like, Wagner’s struggles at 4 somehow proves something about CC. High school CC would probably score just as good as last year Wagner on the NBA agility test from what I have seen.
[edit: I just looked up past forum conversations from last year. I am not sure what group Champions is referring to but apparently the notion that JB would not play two bigs at once and DJ would play the five was coming pretty exclusively from one poster. However, there was a general beleIf that DJ’s playing time would occur as a necessity because we had the 5 covered and needed Wilson as a non ideal backup 4 in spot minutes. Some People were very concerned he would not be capable of defending any position lower than 4 if even able to guard 4. ]