Sure hope Ellenson doesn't end up at MSU. Davis and Ellenson would be a killer frontcourt to deal with.
Davis needs some work; Ellenson is likely one and done. If Ellenson ends up at Marquette, Izzo will not have lost him to Duke (per usual) but to a Dukie.
Not worried. If Ellenson were to attend MSU Hizzo would find a way to bury his talents.
Is Esa still planning to visit this fall? Or did those winds pass?Nope.
Esa’s final 5…#JourneyAlmostOver
Sure hope Ellenson doesn't end up at MSU. Davis and Ellenson would be a killer frontcourt to deal with.Davis needs some work; Ellenson is likely one and done. If Ellenson ends up at Marquette, Izzo will not have lost him to Duke (per usual) but to a Dukie.
No way is Ellenson a one and done in my opinion. I know that has been the talk, but I see Ellenson as college version of Spencer Hawes/Byron Mullens (although better ball skills) at this point. Not atheltic/defensive oriented engough to warrant one and done status to me
Not worried. If Ellenson were to attend MSU Hizzo would find a way to bury his talents.
Exactly, why any big time recruit would play for Izzo these days is beyond me.
I have no idea why people are questioning an upper tier big wanting to play for Izzo, last time I checked Adrien Payne worked out pretty well after a lackluster start during his underclass men years
I have no idea why people are questioning an upper tier big wanting to play for Izzo, last time I checked Adrien Payne worked out pretty well after a lackluster start during his underclass men yearsI was going to reply similarly. Honestly I think Ellenson could come in as a freshman at MSU and have a similar year to Payne's senior year, except maybe even more perimeter-oriented. Let's face it, who else on that roster is going to be as big a difference-maker as him? I would love to have someone like him at Michigan. I think he'd have a similar impact as McGary, except at the 4 rather than the 5.
I have no idea why people are questioning an upper tier big wanting to play for Izzo, last time I checked Adrien Payne worked out pretty well after a lackluster start during his underclass men years
It did work out for him in the end, but do you think he really wanted to or intended to be there 4 years? I don’t.
Michigan St. hasn’t done as well on the NBA front compared to their recruiting over the years. It is at least pretty debatable.
Wrong - most of Payne's work is done in the post.You can justify all you want, we simply don’t utilize post players for purposes of back to the basket scoring, whereas MSU does. This is why upper tier bigs don’t give us a hard look - they know they aren’t going to get the ball and be a feature part of the offense. We are a heavily perimeter oriented offense by any standard, to say otherwise is not facing reality in my view
Those stats show about a quarter of his makes on post ups, about half his field goals in other ways. Doesn’t really support your point. Even when he posted up, it was often 10-12 feet from the hoop, and he’d end up taking a jump shot over the defender. He was not decent but not great at working in close and getting a point blank shot. When we played him, JMo was able to body him and keep him away from the hoop when he posted up even though he had a size advantage over JMo. Izzo even complained about Payne getting “beat up”. Payne was most effective shooting jumpers, not forcing his way into the paint.
My other point was that Beilein can utilize a low post game if he has a player who’s strength is in that area.
Wrong again - just because a player takes/makes a jumpshot doesn’t preclude it from coming via the post. A 10-12 foot shot is indeed a post shot because it can come within the painted area (extends 15 feet vertically). Again, you can emphasize the should’ve/could’ve/would’ve with our lack of post play all you want - as others would say “the proof is in the pudding”
As somebody else posted, DeShawn Sims did exactly that. Got the ball posting up 10 feet out and scored out of that. Yet Beilein supposedly won’t utilize post ups. Re: Payne he had twice as many shots generated outside of posting up, even counting the jump shots from 10-12 feet on a post up as post up hoops. There’s no doubt that Izzo plays some inside out offense, more than we do, but Beilein can/will do the same if he has a player with that ability. If we had Payne, Beilein would have utilized him in the way that would maximize his game. In fact, Beilein is one of the best at doing that. No square pegs in round holes.
That’s where we disagree - while I think JB is a great offensive coach overall, I don’t think he’s as as flexible and adaptive as some claim. I think JB has a hard time integrating players in his system that lack shooting ability or playing a more aggressive style of defense as opposed to his “no foul” sets
It's true that Beilein hasn't run his offense through his bigs (though I think games like Syracuse show he would if he had guys with that skill - having McGary back this year could have done a lot for Michigan's post recruiting in the future), but...I just don't see Izzo maximizing his guys. Going back two full cycles (6-8 years), you could make a very strong case that Nix, Payne, Dawson, Roe, Herzog all underperformed their high school rankings in college (or at least didn't outperform them), and none of the guys who weren't national recruits got developed up into a factor. I think you have to go back to Suton to find a big that exceeded his rankings? (I could be missing someone)
There is some validity to your points above, and while I do agree to a certain extent, but to claim that JB would’ve utilized post players better than Izzo is a HUGE reach given the track records. I mean, c’mon now let’s get real here
Also, it’s very easy for those players to “underperform” because their rankings were so high to begin with, as opposed to someone like Caris that had nowhere to go but up based on ranking
There is some validity to your points above, and while I do agree to a certain extent, but to claim that JB would've utilized post players better than Izzo is a HUGE reach given the track records. I mean, c'mon now let's get real here
Just a theory, but maybe it goes back to differing definitions of utilization. I have no doubt JB would field a better offense than Izzo, but would he better develop the individual bigs in a way that best suits their individual game? Maybe not (particularly if you include defense and rebounding).
WOW people are actually arguing that UM is as good a place for big men as MSU. Crazy how I can go to EVERY other B1G teams forums and read objective post but nope not on here.
Let me guess, he is equal to Matta and Ryan, too? If not better lol
I do think we pump the UM/JB bandwagon a bit too much on this site to be honest
Let me guess, he is equal to Matta and Ryan, too? If not better lol
I dunno…if you’re referring even in part to my post, then no…Matta and Ryan are doing a lot more with bigs. What has Izzo done that’s so great in the past 6-8 years for bigs (other than bring in five stars)?
And while we’re at it…what do you think was a reasonable ceiling for JMo coming out of high school?
Let me guess, he is equal to Matta and Ryan, too? If not better lol6-8 years
Why do all these weird parameters come up when talking Izzo?
Why do all these weird parameters come up when talking Izzo?
Because nobody would argue with you before that timeframe, but it’s also a long time that is relevant to a discussion of the current situation.
Let me guess, he is equal to Matta and Ryan, too? If not better lol6-8 years
Why do all these weird parameters come up when talking Izzo?
How far back do you want to go, Andre Hutson? Recent years are interesting because 1. Beilein was here, and 2. its more relevant to the question of why big men today would play for Izzo as opposed to other coaches. If you look at Izzo and Beilein head to head, Gauna and Horford were in the same class. Gauna was rated higher. Which big man had the better career. Nix was top 80, JMo unrated. Same class. Which had the better career? Payne and Mitch were 5 stars coming out of high school. Mitch was a better player by the end of his first year than Payne at the end of 4 years, and was drafted only a few spots lower despite missing most of his soph season. Costello was a 4 star in Mitch’s class. Decent last season. Jury’s still out. A nice case study going forward.
Izzo has been blessed with a lot of very talented, highly regarded bigs. Paul Davis was a top 10 recruit who had a very good career at MSU, a short stay in the NBA. Would he have done as well under other coaches? I throw out Herzog due to health issues. Suton was a much better when he left than when he got to MSU. Izzo just baby sat Randolph for a year. There are others I’ve forgotten, good and not so good, I’m sure.
Comparing Izzo to other coaches in developing bigs, including Beilein, is not laughable at all.