Ellenson has final 3 of Sparty, Kentucky and Marquette. While I would have him to land with Sparty it seems like that would eliminate them for Swanigan. Do we even have a shot with Caleb?
It’s true that Beilein hasn’t run his offense through his bigs (though I think games like Syracuse show he would if he had guys with that skill - having McGary back this year could have done a lot for Michigan’s post recruiting in the future), but…I just don’t see Izzo maximizing his guys. Going back two full cycles (6-8 years), you could make a very strong case that Nix, Payne, Dawson, Roe, Herzog all underperformed their high school rankings in college (or at least didn’t outperform them), and none of the guys who weren’t national recruits got developed up into a factor. I think you have to go back to Suton to find a big that exceeded his rankings? (I could be missing someone)
I didn’t initiate that dialogue - JNismyhero questioned “why any big time recruit would want to play for Izzo”. I thought a statement that silly deserved a reality check
There is no discussion when it comes to developing bigs - it's a one sided story thus far
oh ok good, cause I didn’t think I saw anyone suggesting UM could do better with the bigs but you mentioned it.
Wrong - most of Payne's work is done in the post.You can justify all you want, we simply don’t utilize post players for purposes of back to the basket scoring, whereas MSU does. This is why upper tier bigs don’t give us a hard look - they know they aren’t going to get the ball and be a feature part of the offense. We are a heavily perimeter oriented offense by any standard, to say otherwise is not facing reality in my view
Those stats show about a quarter of his makes on post ups, about half his field goals in other ways. Doesn’t really support your point. Even when he posted up, it was often 10-12 feet from the hoop, and he’d end up taking a jump shot over the defender. He was not decent but not great at working in close and getting a point blank shot. When we played him, JMo was able to body him and keep him away from the hoop when he posted up even though he had a size advantage over JMo. Izzo even complained about Payne getting “beat up”. Payne was most effective shooting jumpers, not forcing his way into the paint.
My other point was that Beilein can utilize a low post game if he has a player who’s strength is in that area.
Wrong again - just because a player takes/makes a jumpshot doesn’t preclude it from coming via the post. A 10-12 foot shot is indeed a post shot because it can come within the painted area (extends 15 feet vertically). Again, you can emphasize the should’ve/could’ve/would’ve with our lack of post play all you want - as others would say “the proof is in the pudding”
There is no discussion when it comes to developing bigs - it’s a one sided story thus far
Coach definitely uses his bigs much different than most coaches. If you look at what he did at West Virginia with Pittsnogle, that’s his ideal way of using them. Both Pittsnogle and D’or Fischer got the ball a lot. At the same time, the ball is in the hands of his guards and wings the most and that’s why his offense is so effective and efficient on a consistent basis.
Wrong - most of Payne's work is done in the post.You can justify all you want, we simply don’t utilize post players for purposes of back to the basket scoring, whereas MSU does. This is why upper tier bigs don’t give us a hard look - they know they aren’t going to get the ball and be a feature part of the offense. We are a heavily perimeter oriented offense by any standard, to say otherwise is not facing reality in my view
Those stats show about a quarter of his makes on post ups, about half his field goals in other ways. By contrast, Nix’s touches were in the paint over 90% of the time, and he was not that effective after 4 years, despite Izzo’s supposed acumen coaching bigs. Doesn’t really support your point. Even when Payne posted up, it was often 10-12 feet from the hoop, and he’d end up taking a jump shot over the defender. He was decent but not great at working in close and getting a point blank shot. When we played him, JMo was able to body him and keep him away from the hoop when he posted up even though he had a size advantage over JMo. Izzo even complained about Payne getting “beat up”. Payne was most effective shooting jumpers, not forcing his way into the paint.
My other point was that Beilein can utilize a low post game if he has a player who’s strength is in that area.
Wrong - most of Payne’s work is done in the post.
You can justify all you want, we simply don’t utilize post players for purposes of back to the basket scoring, whereas MSU does. This is why upper tier bigs don’t give us a hard look - they know they aren’t going to get the ball and be a feature part of the offense. We are a heavily perimeter oriented offense by any standard, to say otherwise is not facing reality in my view
Wrong - most of Payne's work is done in the post.You can justify all you want, we simply don’t utilize post players for purposes of back to the basket scoring, whereas MSU does. This is why upper tier bigs don’t give us a hard look - they know they aren’t going to get the ball and be a feature part of the offense. We are a heavily perimeter oriented offense by any standard, to say otherwise is not facing reality in my view
Didn’t Deshawn Sims get balls often in the post?
Not trying to be funny here, but as it relates to bigs, there simply is no debate. MSU focuses much more on delivering the ball inside and we don't, plain and simple. Former players have even confirmed as much. I understand this is a UM board and that we send players to the league, but restricting the argument to bigs and to assert that an upper tier big shouldn't want to go to MSU but should want UM has no basis in my view.
…when did the discussion turn MSU vs. UM for big development? I thought it was just focused on MSU.
Not trying to be funny here, but as it relates to bigs, there simply is no debate. MSU focuses much more on delivering the ball inside and we don't, plain and simple. Former players have even confirmed as much. I understand this is a UM board and that we send players to the league, but restricting the argument to bigs and to assert that an upper tier big shouldn't want to go to MSU but should want UM has no basis in my view.I completely agree with you. MSU does much more with their bigs in their offense than UofM does. Wolverine bigs essentially are screen setters, passers, and the rolling finish option on pick&roll in Michigan’s offense. Seeing tape of what MSU has done under Izzo with guys like Payne, Draymond (if you count him as a big) and even Goran Suton, it would be a no-brainer if I’m him.
But I don’t think this convo matters much as he is likely to land at Marquette.
Depends on the big. If Beilein has a big who can score in the low block, back to the hoop, he’ll utilize it. (Hasn’t had that yet. Very few of those guys out there. Amir Williams was supposed to be, but was pretty much a dud.) If he has one who can hit a mid range jumper, pass effectively, and go to the hoop if overplayed (Mitch), he’ll utilize high post. If his center is best at high ball screens and roll (JMo), he’ll utilize that. Horford complained about not getting touches in the paint, but he was not effective scoring in the paint when guarded. Izzo dumps the ball into the low post to guys who have that ability, but, even though Payne got some dump downs, most of his scoring was mid to long range shooting.
Not trying to be funny here, but as it relates to bigs, there simply is no debate. MSU focuses much more on delivering the ball inside and we don't, plain and simple. Former players have even confirmed as much. I understand this is a UM board and that we send players to the league, but restricting the argument to bigs and to assert that an upper tier big shouldn't want to go to MSU but should want UM has no basis in my view.
I completely agree with you. MSU does much more with their bigs in their offense than UofM does. Wolverine bigs essentially are screen setters, passers, and the rolling finish option on pick&roll in Michigan’s offense. Seeing tape of what MSU has done under Izzo with guys like Payne, Draymond (if you count him as a big) and even Goran Suton, it would be a no-brainer if I’m him.
But I don’t think this convo matters much as he is likely to land at Marquette.
Not trying to be funny here, but as it relates to bigs, there simply is no debate. MSU focuses much more on delivering the ball inside and we don’t, plain and simple. Former players have even confirmed as much. I understand this is a UM board and that we send players to the league, but restricting the argument to bigs and to assert that an upper tier big shouldn’t want to go to MSU but should want UM has no basis in my view.
Is Esa still planning to visit this fall? Or did those winds pass?
Hard to see us landing an elite big in 2015 (even if one were interested) with only one guaranteed spot left open, and that almost certainly reserved for a guard. If more than one player leaves early (say LaVert and Irvin), then we might grab a late signee, but in that case, it would more likely be another wing. If Donnal, Doyle and Wilson all look promising in 2014-15, that would make it even less likely that we’d try to grab another big for 2015, with none of them being likely early departures and with Teske in place for 2016.
No.
Really not expecting a big in the 2015 class at all. Also expecting Ellenson to likely end up at Marquette personally.
With Donnal, Doyle, Wilson, and then Teske, the team is pretty set over the next few years for bigs. I don’t think they’d take any big in '15 unless they really liked him. I don’t think anyone really knows about Swanigan, but my guess would be KU or UK.
Sure hope Ellenson doesn’t end up at MSU. Davis and Ellenson would be a killer frontcourt to deal with.