Sweet 16 Open Thread

The better team won tonight, for sure, as much as it hurts me to say it. I've been watching jones all year, and he has been doing this same stuff almost every game late in games when they needed it. They played their perfect game, even without a good Oklafor performance.

But still, Wisconsin played its role, it beat UK and MattD’s perfect athletic team. So I’m happy you got the win tonight, but I hope in the future, you will value a little more what teams like Wisconsin are able to accomplish with player development, and see the beauty that is college basketball if everything is not aimed towards one and dones and NBA.

Im a bigger NBA fan than college. NBA basketball far exceeds college in terms of quality and talent…not even close. Until the one and done rules change, college basketball will continue to be a joke. Player development is just not something Im a fan of in general. Im a fan of seeing the most talented players and teams win because they generally play a higher level of basketball that I prefer to view from a purely aesthetic standpoint.

Fair enough. That’s a valid point. My take on things is that those types of talents you talk about should just go to the NBA and try to make their splash. College ball should be their own thing, based on development and your loyalties and dedication to your university. I honestly feel no better joy than seeing a kid who was nothing in HS, being picked up in college, play in the national championship and finish as a lottery pick. That’s beautiful. It actually makes a difference in kids’ lives.
What coach K and Calipari do doesn’t make a difference, it exploits talent for one year. It disgusts me

That’s basically my whole point, this idiotic one and done rule puts nearly every program at a competitive disadvantage to the extent that you are compelled to put freshman on the floor that clearly have no business there unless you can recruit 3-4 five star kids per year. I’d rather those kids ride the bench for 2 years, and start seeing regular minutes as upperclassmen, the way it was in the 80s. College basketball was exponentially better back then.

I do disagree to the extent that Coach K and Cal don’t make a positive impact on kids’ lives. They are offering kids that in some cases, are very disadvantaged, the opportunity to have a way out for lack of a better term…and that is worth something in my view considering my own upbringing.

Bottom line, allow kids to enter the NBA straight from HS and mandate 2-3 years if kids decide to pursue college, and all of basketball will be a better place. There are racial undertones to that stupid rule, and it disgusts me on every level.

What I’m saying is that coach K and Cal don’t actually make a difference in terms of improving their skills. They are there basically as “sports agents” showcasing some kid’s skills and value from it by making deep tournament runs. You might say that it makes a difference in that kids life, but honestly, most of those kids who make it to those kind of programs and then go to the NBA, honestly didn’t need coach K or Cal’s mentorship to make it in the NBA anyway.
That’s why brown for example doesn’t really need us if his only goal is the NBA.

But you are right, the issue is the one and done policy.

I even have to disagree with the improvement angle. Let’s be real here, practicing against UK/Duke level talent every day in practice is going to simulate and prepare a player much better for the league than the subpar type of athletic ability and raw talent on our current roster.

I thought the Wiscy/UK game was predictable quite frankly and I bet it that way :)) UK D is overrated and while very talented they are flawed. 38 wins in a row is impressive, but if UK played in the BT/ACC/Big 12, their record would not have been any better than Duke or Wisconsin’s, IMO.

I also think Ryan out coached Cal…and it wasn’t close. Wiscy did a FAR better job taking advantage of mismatches and they did a better job executing across the board.

I admit I was disappointed with the result. I have never liked the “cheer for the B1G” argument. I have never seen a college basketball team go undefeated and Kentucky was the best chance this year and probably down the road. I would still say the Calipari model has certainly been working. He’s been to 4 Final Fours at Kentucky, 1 title, 1 championship game loss. If we are to judge strictly based on championships then it hasn’t been great but it’s not easy to win a title. You need to make the Final Four first in order to win a national title. If Calipari sticks around he will still get another national title here or there.

I thought the Wiscy/UK game was predictable quite frankly and I bet it that way :)) UK D is overrated and while very talented they are flawed. 38 wins in a row is impressive, but if UK played in the BT/ACC/Big 12, their record would not have been any better than Duke or Wisconsin's, IMO.

I also think Ryan out coached Cal…and it wasn’t close. Wiscy did a FAR better job taking advantage of mismatches and they did a better job executing across the board.

Im praying Duke beats the shit out if Wisconsin. I can’t stand Bo Ryan/Wisconsin.

I can’t stand coach K and Duke, so I’m praying for the opposite :slight_smile: but may the best team win! It is definitely going to be an amazing game

I think jones is the best player I've seen all year. Felt like every time I turned a Duke game on, he was making some sort of play.

Justice Winslow is nothing short of great as a 2 way player. Kid has Kawhi Leonard potential. Whoever lands that kid (I wouldn’t mind my Lakers drafting him) will be getting one hell of a player. Doesn’t need the ball to impact the game.

I thought the Wiscy/UK game was predictable quite frankly and I bet it that way :)) UK D is overrated and while very talented they are flawed. 38 wins in a row is impressive, but if UK played in the BT/ACC/Big 12, their record would not have been any better than Duke or Wisconsin's, IMO.

I also think Ryan out coached Cal…and it wasn’t close. Wiscy did a FAR better job taking advantage of mismatches and they did a better job executing across the board.

Im praying Duke beats the shit out if Wisconsin. I can’t stand Bo Ryan/Wisconsin.

Why? F Kentucky, I’m so glad they lost.

I thought the Wiscy/UK game was predictable quite frankly and I bet it that way :)) UK D is overrated and while very talented they are flawed. 38 wins in a row is impressive, but if UK played in the BT/ACC/Big 12, their record would not have been any better than Duke or Wisconsin's, IMO.

I also think Ryan out coached Cal…and it wasn’t close. Wiscy did a FAR better job taking advantage of mismatches and they did a better job executing across the board.

Im praying Duke beats the shit out if Wisconsin. I can’t stand Bo Ryan/Wisconsin.

Why? F Kentucky, I’m so glad they lost.

I just can’t stand the little dirty moves that Wisconsin has displayed under Bo Ryan, a shot to the midsection, undercutting jumpshooters, etc. Not just physical play, but acts that can potentially hurt the opponent. Wisconsin cheats just as much, if not more, than any team in the country, just in a different fashion.

I will be rooting for Wisconsin tonight. I am willing to root for any team in the B1G against Duke or UK, except MSU and OSU. At that point, I’m in a lose lose situation.

I love coach K. But pulling for they B1G. Would be great to have a supposedly down conference win both football and basketball championships. Don’t really like Bo, but watching all the side stuff with the players during this tournament has got me to really like them.

Had an interesting discussion today about UK, just curious for the opinions of others… besides Towns and WCS, who are the definite NBA players on UK? Not saying others won’t make the league, but the whole 10-deep, 2-squad argument is based on them having 10 NBA guys. Do they really?

Of course, I know a bunch of the guys will get drafted because of where they go to school and the spotlight on them and recruiting rankings… but how many get a second contract?

I think jones is the best player I’ve seen all year. Felt like every time I turned a Duke game on, he was making some sort of play.

Had an interesting discussion today about UK, just curious for the opinions of others... besides Towns and WCS, who are the definite NBA players on UK? Not saying others won't make the league, but the whole 10-deep, 2-squad argument is based on them having 10 NBA guys. Do they really?

Of course, I know a bunch of the guys will get drafted because of where they go to school and the spotlight on them and recruiting rankings… but how many get a second contract?

I’m huge on Lyles…think he may be the most underrated draft prospect. His skillset at 6’10 is tantalizing to say the least. Can create his own shot from the perimeter, has a post game, good rebounder, good mid range jumpshooter.

Chalk one up to a flat out better coach who also has a core of elite level talent on his team.

The way Bo Ryan exploited Calipari’s decision to go small at the start of the 2h was beautiful.

UK’s 2 shot clock violations in crunch time are a direct reflection of poor coaching. You can’t just roll the ball out there and expect to win these games when the other team is as talented as Wisconsin and as well coached.

The decision to have Booker on the floor was absolute stupidity. Kaminsky only scored 2-3 baskets on nonBooker players. Booker was repeatedly abused by both Dekker and Kaminsky. The 1-4 offensive sets during the final 4 mins to Harrison was stupidity as well considering he’s just above average and the biggest mismatch was clearly Towns against anyone and Lyles to a lesser extent

This video basically sums up just how badly Bo outcoached Cal. Kaminsky couldn’t score on eithet WCS or Towns on the block, so he got him involved in PnR to exploit the mismatch vs. Booker…Cal just never adjusted, and cost himself a trip to the championship in the process. Kind of amazing how easily Towns is able to get clean looks against a legit 6’11 guy, whereas Kaminsky really struggled in that regard. Towns has no footwork, he just simply turns and elevates over the defense and there is nothing Kaminsky can do to stop it. Pretty much the reason why I’m not big on Kaminsky in the NBA, just too unatheltic to be effective against NBA level bigs, and this video pretty much solidified that for me.

He was using that one possession of Okafor vs Kaminsky as some sort of proof that Okafor owned Kaminsky tonight. It is a fallacy. Kaminsky, the poster child for development, dominated Okafor all night. Okafor was unable to guard Kaminsky (21 points to 10 points) and Kaminsky dominated Okafor on the glass (12 rebounds to 3 rebounds).

No one that watched that game could honestly say that Okafor outplayed Kaminsky. Do you agree?

He was using that one possession of Okafor vs Kaminsky as some sort of proof that Okafor owned Kaminsky tonight. It is a fallacy. Kaminsky, the poster child for development, dominated Okafor all night. Okafor was unable to guard Kaminsky (21 points to 10 points) and Kaminsky dominated Okafor on the glass (12 rebounds to 3 rebounds).

No one that watched that game could honestly say that Okafor outplayed Kaminsky. Do you agree?

No, now you you’re just flat out trying to start shit and you know it. My exact post concerning Kaminsky below:

Dylan deleted my post, which whatever. But in any event, talent wins out yet again. The poster child for development, the great Frank Kaminsky, was helpless down the stretch vs Okafor and that is reality. I loved every minute of those true freshman absolutely lighting Bo Ryan up. I can’t stand that damn team.

Long live talent!

I never said ANYTHING about Okafor dominating all night. I specifically limited the ‘helpless’ description to down the stretch/last 4 minutes. My original post, which Dylan deleted, outlined exactly what I was talking about - Okafor was reinserted in the game with approx 3-4 mins left (had 4 fouls as you reference above), proceeded to get the ball on the block, and the great Frank Kaminsky, with all his development, experience, strength and conditioning, IQ, was reduced to attempting to hold a 19 year old kid…and still couldn’t succeed. On the subsequent play, Kaminsky gets the ball on the block against Kaminsky, only to have that same 19 year old kid, with hardly any development, experience, IQ, and questionable conditioning, force him into a wild, off balance shot, that didn’t even draw iron. Duke comes back down the court and scores. GAME, SET MATCH.

Nothing but poetic justice.

My initial post went on to say that the 2 best players on the court all night were clearly 2 five star true freshman…Jones and Allen.

I understand you pretty much despise my views, and I’m ok with that. But when you are reduced to flat out making stuff up, it’s a sad day indeed.

Its open mic night at the Improv, and the stage is yours my friend. Go ahead, I respectfully bow out.

Chalk one up to a flat out better coach who also has a core of elite level talent on his team.

The way Bo Ryan exploited Calipari’s decision to go small at the start of the 2h was beautiful.

UK’s 2 shot clock violations in crunch time are a direct reflection of poor coaching. You can’t just roll the ball out there and expect to win these games when the other team is as talented as Wisconsin and as well coached.

The decision to have Booker on the floor was absolute stupidity. Kaminsky only scored 2-3 baskets on nonBooker players. Booker was repeatedly abused by both Dekker and Kaminsky. The 1-4 offensive sets during the final 4 mins to Harrison was stupidity as well considering he’s just above average and the biggest mismatch was clearly Towns against anyone and Lyles to a lesser extent

This video basically sums up just how badly Bo outcoached Cal. Kaminsky couldn’t score on eithet WCS or Towns on the block, so he got him involved in PnR to exploit the mismatch vs. Booker…Cal just never adjusted, and cost himself a trip to the championship in the process. Kind of amazing how easily Towns is able to get clean looks against a legit 6’11 guy, whereas Kaminsky really struggled in that regard. Towns has no footwork, he just simply turns and elevates over the defense and there is nothing Kaminsky can do to stop it. Pretty much the reason why I’m not big on Kaminsky in the NBA, just too unatheltic to be effective against NBA level bigs, and this video pretty much solidified that for me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PpXYhpSIS4

Chalk one up to a flat out better coach who also has a core of elite level talent on his team.

The way Bo Ryan exploited Calipari’s decision to go small at the start of the 2h was beautiful.

UK’s 2 shot clock violations in crunch time are a direct reflection of poor coaching. You can’t just roll the ball out there and expect to win these games when the other team is as talented as Wisconsin and as well coached.

The decision to have Booker on the floor was absolute stupidity. Kaminsky only scored 2-3 baskets on nonBooker players. Booker was repeatedly abused by both Dekker and Kaminsky. The 1-4 offensive sets during the final 4 mins to Harrison was stupidity as well considering he’s just above average and the biggest mismatch was clearly Towns against anyone and Lyles to a lesser extent

This video basically sums up just how badly Bo outcoached Cal. Kaminsky couldn’t score on eithet WCS or Towns on the block, so he got him involved in PnR to exploit the mismatch vs. Booker…Cal just never adjusted, and cost himself a trip to the championship in the process. Kind of amazing how easily Towns is able to get clean looks against a legit 6’11 guy, whereas Kaminsky really struggled in that regard. Towns has no footwork, he just simply turns and elevates over the defense and there is nothing Kaminsky can do to stop it. Pretty much the reason why I’m not big on Kaminsky in the NBA, just too unatheltic to be effective against NBA level bigs, and this video pretty much solidified that for me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PpXYhpSIS4

Chalk one up to a flat out better coach who also has a core of elite level talent on his team.

The way Bo Ryan exploited Calipari’s decision to go small at the start of the 2h was beautiful.

UK’s 2 shot clock violations in crunch time are a direct reflection of poor coaching. You can’t just roll the ball out there and expect to win these games when the other team is as talented as Wisconsin and as well coached.

The decision to have Booker on the floor was absolute stupidity. Kaminsky only scored 2-3 baskets on nonBooker players. Booker was repeatedly abused by both Dekker and Kaminsky. The 1-4 offensive sets during the final 4 mins to Harrison was stupidity as well considering he’s just above average and the biggest mismatch was clearly Towns against anyone and Lyles to a lesser extent

This video basically sums up just how badly Bo outcoached Cal. Kaminsky couldn’t score on eithet WCS or Towns on the block, so he got him involved in PnR to exploit the mismatch vs. Booker…Cal just never adjusted, and cost himself a trip to the championship in the process. Kind of amazing how easily Towns is able to get clean looks against a legit 6’11 guy, whereas Kaminsky really struggled in that regard. Towns has no footwork, he just simply turns and elevates over the defense and there is nothing Kaminsky can do to stop it. Pretty much the reason why I’m not big on Kaminsky in the NBA, just too unatheltic to be effective against NBA level bigs, and this video pretty much solidified that for me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PpXYhpSIS4

I agree, one of the things I was surprised about while watching this tourney is how easily people are shooting over kaminsky, for such a tall, long guy it shouldn’t be that easy.

First, I live in Wisconsin and hate this program as much as I hate Ohio St. I was rooting for Duke pretty intensely. That being said, you really have to be pushing some sort of weird agenda to say that Okafor outplayed Kaminsky tonight. Okafor struggled with foul trouble because he couldn't guard Kaminsky. Did you even watch the game?

Kaminsky 21 points, 12 rebounds, 2 assists, 1 steal, 1 block
Okafor 10 points, 3 rebounds, 0 assists, 0 steals, 0 blocks

I mean, come on.

To be factual, he did say at the end of the game, but even at that, we’re talking about one really good move on the block. Not a repeated domination. Wiscy lost because they don’t have the talent in the back court to offset someone who matches up with them in the front court. Plus, when they got down, they weren’t able to speed the offense up. Were Jackson healthy, it might have helped since he can actually create his own shot.

I absolutely loathe Duke. I can only imagine how much more my hatred would be for them if I was around during the Fab 5 era. I hate their whole 'better than thou' culture, and while I also hate Bo Ryan (and Wisconsin in general), I would root for the Badgers over Duke 10/10 times. Regardless of what happened last game, we should expect fair officiating, and that was clearly not the case. Duke got a bunch of lucky breaks.

I’ll be honest with you, UM is very much perceived as having a ‘better than thou’ disposition by most non UM alumni/fans/affiliates. Awful lot of similarity between Duke and UM if you really look at it.

I know the culture is from a while back, but you have seen the 30/30 fab five doc right? I mean, after this, if you are a true michigan fan, how can you EVER favor Duke in a game? It goes beyond my understanding

I lived through the Fab 5 era and was able to attend games as well. I just hate Wisconsin and everything about them. I’ve always gravitated towards dynasty teams…Yankees, Lakers, 49ers…I just like winners.

I’ve always been a fan of underdogs. It’s so exciting to see something unexpected happen rather than the obvious outcome. Especially when it’s Michigan 13-14, or fab five 91-92. Or wisconsin beating UK 2014-2015.

It’s only exciting if your school is the underdog or you hate the dynasty. Wasn’t very fun losing to UNC in 93 as the favorite.

First, I live in Wisconsin and hate this program as much as I hate Ohio St. I was rooting for Duke pretty intensely. That being said, you really have to be pushing some sort of weird agenda to say that Okafor outplayed Kaminsky tonight. Okafor struggled with foul trouble because he couldn’t guard Kaminsky. Did you even watch the game?

Kaminsky 21 points, 12 rebounds, 2 assists, 1 steal, 1 block
Okafor 10 points, 3 rebounds, 0 assists, 0 steals, 0 blocks

I mean, come on.