sane: We're not talking about how often a player gets assists, that's passing. We're talking about actual ballhandling. I can't think of 1 player who has improved their ballhandling enough that it had a major effect on their overall ability.
Presumably, you have to handle the ball very well to get 7 assists per game as DMo did as a soph- no? What statistical measure would you use? I assume that you watched DMo during his two years here. Putting aside stats, are you saying that, based on your observation of him, he did not greatly improve his ball handling from year one to year two? I saw every game, and I believe he did. You and guestavo are free to disagree.
Have to disagree on this one. Wilt Chamberlain averaged 8 assists per game in 2 seasons during his NBA tenure. Would you say Wilt had a good handle? Ball handling and passing are mutually exclusive. Jamal Crawford has a great handle but he’s not the greatest passer in the world to make a contemporary example. Joakim Noah and Pau Gasol are exceptional passers, but they certainly can’t handle the ball
We’re not talking about centers. We’re talking guards and wings. They do have to handle the ball well to have big assist totals.
Paul George.
Paul George what?
Is a wing with an average handle and racks up assist.
And guestavo is so hit or miss. Provides a ton of good articles, videos and insight but along with it acts like he is the smartest guy in the room at all times.
Can we lose the “know it all” tones in these responses?
I'd say Novak, DMo, THJ and Nik all improved a lot in the ball handling realm.
lol ok
^^^^ Comments like this is why this board can be really difficult to read. Folks have differing opinions and frames of reference…but I don’t get the need to ‘lol’ someone’s post. I guess you are the expert and anyone who disagrees with you should be laughed at.
I agree completely. I understand that Dylan wants traffic. But these boards are dominated by two posters who could almost be one. They take strong, mostly highly debatable stands, with 100% certainty that they are right. They never back down an inch and show little regard for anyone who dares to disagree, often to the point of insulting them and their opinions. This behavior causes arguments and the board is completely dominated by them. It’s not fun to read. Really it’s just become a mess. I may check back sometime to see if it’s been cleaned up, but for now the little useful tidbits I pick up here are not worth the unpleasantness. Sorry, Dylan.
And guestavo is so hit or miss. Provides a ton of good articles, videos and insight but along with it acts like he is the smartest guy in the room at all times.
Can we lose the “know it all” tones in these responses?
Or maybe you don’t like what I say? I’ve already pointed out the double standard for people being objective and those who sugar coat EVERYTHING.
sane: We're not talking about how often a player gets assists, that's passing. We're talking about actual ballhandling. I can't think of 1 player who has improved their ballhandling enough that it had a major effect on their overall ability.
Presumably, you have to handle the ball very well to get 7 assists per game as DMo did as a soph- no? What statistical measure would you use? I assume that you watched DMo during his two years here. Putting aside stats, are you saying that, based on your observation of him, he did not greatly improve his ball handling from year one to year two? I saw every game, and I believe he did. You and guestavo are free to disagree.
Have to disagree on this one. Wilt Chamberlain averaged 8 assists per game in 2 seasons during his NBA tenure. Would you say Wilt had a good handle? Ball handling and passing are mutually exclusive. Jamal Crawford has a great handle but he’s not the greatest passer in the world to make a contemporary example. Joakim Noah and Pau Gasol are exceptional passers, but they certainly can’t handle the ball
We’re not talking about centers. We’re talking guards and wings. They do have to handle the ball well to have big assist totals.
Paul George.
Paul George what?
Is a wing with an average handle and racks up assist.
I don’t watch that much of the Pacers, but my impression is that he has a very good handle for a 6’9" 2/3. Unless he simply sets up in the high post and hits cutters, his handle is helping him get his 3.5 assists/game. Everything else being equal, an improved handle will help a player generate assists, e.g. so many assists result from breaking down the defender and forcing help defense.
Matt just loves to argue and take the unpopular stance on every topic. Can't remember the last topic he was in agreement with the masses. It's fine to debate but the "know it all" attitude drives me nuts.
Utter and complete garbage. I tell it how I see it, plain and simple. Whether you agree with it or not is your choice. Here’s the thing - when I have a favorable opinion on anything UM related(recruiting in particular), ie Teske or Doyle then it’s ok for me to be an “expert” and I literally receive no backlash whatsoever for making “absolute” statements, of which I did make with my Teske scouting report. BUT, when I dare say that the coaching staff made a mistake in recruiting or a given recruit isn’t a good fit or has limited skill, with an “absolute” statement in conjunction with that, then I “I love to argue” or I “know it all”.
I’ll bite… when one considers ball handling are we just talking about And1 mixtape skills or are we dealing in functional ball handling? Two names of state of Michigan players who were very good college and NBA players with less than stellar handles that got anywhere they wanted to on the court, Steve Smith and Jalen Rose. Admittedly, in both cases their size played a factor, but so did the use of hesitation dribbles not UTEP 2-step cross overs or Shamgods. Not saying Robinson is, will be or has any shot to approach the level of those guys, but shaky handles are not the death knell to SG ability.
To the point of improvements in ball handling while at Michigan, go back to the NCAA tournament game against Tennessee with Stu and Zack. In that game, both of those players deployed step-back jumpers. Neither in my time of watching (and I’ve been actively watching UM b-ball since the mid 80s) ever deployed that particular shot. During the broadcast, or in the immediate aftermath, I remember the discussion about those shots coming up and it was directly attributed to work with Coach Vall. That shot is tied to ball handling and strength, and is a situational improvement that can be made to a payers game while in college.
“Many of these posters don’t watch basketball outside of UM. Its obvious.”
Sane1 disagrees with you, and this is your response? You are unbelievably obnoxious. Sane1’s original statement was that THJr, Novak, and DMo all improved their ball handling while at Michigan… You have still not responded to his statement, but instead throw blanket responses that literally add nothing but negativity to the conversation.
My thoughts, and it is simple… I will put much more stock into the fact that Lavall Jordan, whom largely leads our ball-handling development, is regarded as one of the best young assistant coaches in the nation right now over your negative and argumentative feedback.
Sane1 made this statement: “THJr, Novak, and DMo all improved their ball handling while at Michigan”
The response to this is either correct or incorrect: It is undoubtedly correct. If THJr would have had the same handles when he left college than he did when he arrived, there is 0% chance he would have been drafted. Absolutely no way.
Lastly, please tell me how you know that many of the posters on this board don’t watch basketball outside of UM? Oh that’s right, by the 20 minutes I have been scanning this board, you are obviously all-knowing.
sane: We're not talking about how often a player gets assists, that's passing. We're talking about actual ballhandling. I can't think of 1 player who has improved their ballhandling enough that it had a major effect on their overall ability.
Presumably, you have to handle the ball very well to get 7 assists per game as DMo did as a soph- no? What statistical measure would you use? I assume that you watched DMo during his two years here. Putting aside stats, are you saying that, based on your observation of him, he did not greatly improve his ball handling from year one to year two? I saw every game, and I believe he did. You and guestavo are free to disagree.
Have to disagree on this one. Wilt Chamberlain averaged 8 assists per game in 2 seasons during his NBA tenure. Would you say Wilt had a good handle? Ball handling and passing are mutually exclusive. Jamal Crawford has a great handle but he’s not the greatest passer in the world to make a contemporary example. Joakim Noah and Pau Gasol are exceptional passers, but they certainly can’t handle the ball
We’re not talking about centers. We’re talking guards and wings. They do have to handle the ball well to have big assist totals.
Paul George.
Paul George what?
Is a wing with an average handle and racks up assist.
I don’t watch that much of the Pacers, but my impression is that he has a very good handle for a 6’9" 2/3. Unless he simply sets up in the high post and hits cutters, his handle is helping him get his 3.5 assists/game. Everything else being equal, an improved handle will help a player generate assists, e.g. so many assists result from breaking down the defender and forcing help defense.
Ask the forum “does Paul George have a good handle”
Don’t feel bad if every post is satirical or “lulz”
No theory at all, I simply said that ball handling and passing are not one in the same. Do you beg to differ? What's your theory?
That’s a red herring. Making a good pass and handling the basketball are separate skills, but they are closely related. You need both to be a top assist man. So assist numbers reflect ball handing ability, as well as passing. If your assist numbers are no. 1 in the B1G like DMo, you have to be able to do both skills very well. Guess I don’t know what you’re arguing here.
Simply false in my view
OK, I’ll play along. In what situations can a guard create assists without a strong handle? Our current and previous two PGs generated assists primarily from dribbling into the heart of the D and kicking to a shooter or dumping to a rolling big man, or leading a fast break. All of that requires a strong handle.
First off, you attempted to change the scope of the debate - you initially said “presumably you need a good handle to be a good passer” without regard to position, at which point I offered examples of centers that had good assist numbers while not being good ball handlers. You then attempted to limit the debate to guards and wings - I played your game and offered 5 examples of guards and wings that do not have a good handle, to which you didn’t respond.
On the most general level of basketball, you simply don’t need to have a good handle to rack up assists, it’s really just that simple. I provided numerous examples of that at multiple positions.
As it relates to UM - Dmo didn’t have a good handle, functional, but not good. Caris has a much better handle than DMo but yet Dmo racked up more assists. While one may help the other, they are distinct skill sets.
I think the true problem is your standard of a “good” handle - once you said that Novak had a good handle I knew your standards were quite low. In no way, shape or form did Novak ever have a good handle. I think 99.9% of the educated basketball community would agree with that statement.
I'll bite... when one considers ball handling are we just talking about And1 mixtape skills or are we dealing in functional ball handling? Two names of state of Michigan players who were very good college and NBA players with less than stellar handles that got anywhere they wanted to on the court, Steve Smith and Jalen Rose. Admittedly, in both cases their size played a factor, but so did the use of hesitation dribbles not UTEP 2-step cross overs or Shamgods. Not saying Robinson is, will be or has any shot to approach the level of those guys, but shaky handles are not the death knell to SG ability.
To the point of improvements in ball handling while at Michigan, go back to the NCAA tournament game against Tennessee with Stu and Zack. In that game, both of those players deployed step-back jumpers. Neither in my time of watching (and I’ve been actively watching UM b-ball since the mid 80s) ever deployed that particular shot. During the broadcast, or in the immediate aftermath, I remember the discussion about those shots coming up and it was directly attributed to work with Coach Vall. That shot is tied to ball handling and strength, and is a situational improvement that can be made to a payers game while in college.
I would say it has more correlation to footwork and balance rather than ball handling, but I can see your point.
I would say it has more correlation to footwork and balance rather than ball handling, but I can see your point.
Right there with you, definitely balance (strength) and footwork. To me though, footwork when handling the ball in non-post situations is part of handling the ball. It is a separate entity entirely when moving without the ball or working in the post with the ball.