Podcast: On Michigan's defining performance vs. Ohio State, and Michigan State's last gasp

Forgot about Zeb! Ohio kid who played in the game **


I’m fine to pass judgement on OSU for many things, but the way they work themselves up for rivals isn’t one of them. They get that right and we should learn from them.

No thanks.

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I’m just a hard disagree there. Don’t think that has anything to do with outcomes and comes across as disingenuous more often than not, definitely does so here imo

Michigan should give gold bars to players.

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They obviously think it has something to do with outcomes They are direct participants. If there’s something they do to approach playing us that we could copy without straying from our school’s ways and standards, well, it would be wise to have a look, but that is merely my two cents.


What is the evidence that them working themselves up for rivals is the reason for success against rivals? If anything, this gold jersey thing worked against them as it obviously motivated Michigan to an extent.

My opinion is that “caring more” is just a narrative that is used when a team is succeeding. Is OSU kicking our butts in football because they care more about the rivalry? I don’t think so. I think they’ve had better coaching and better players for the last two decades. That’s what I’d want to copy from them. Not any rituals or rites of passage.

In basketball, they’ve been less successful than us overall for the last decade. Decade and a half before that, they were more successful. Why? Better coaching and better players.


Definitely agree about the better coaching and players for the football team. To the extent that it’s possible, I would also like to copy whatever it is they are doing there. As for the rest of it, well, evidence or no evidence many coaches and players use these kinds of motivational strategies. National writers fall all over themselves to overrate MSU every October, and yet still Izzo manages to field a team with a chip on its shoulder. I can’t tell you exactly what percentage of his wins are the result of that stuff but he clearly thinks its worth doing. I also think Hunter Dickinson would have still rampaged over Maryland in College Park even if he didn’t turn his non-recruitment by that team into a storyline and a technical foul, but he thought it was worth doing.

As for OSU, well, you’re right that they’ve been less successful than us overall for the last decade. They also have a winning record against us in basketball in that period. So if there’s pushback against the notion that OSU is a school that knows how to prepare for a rival, that just doesn’t make sense to me personally. I don’t see myself in position to tell them what they are doing right and wrong, and if the goal is losing to them less often it’s definitely worth noting how they go about things.


I’ve never been too convinced that caring more or being more obsessed carries anyone terribly far. But preparation, oh yeah. And we have to admit, OSU did play over their heads yesterday! :slight_smile: Happily, they lost to the better squad anyway. Which is what’s been happening to us in football.

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The pushback is against the idea that they’re doing something special for rivalries when there’s not really any evidence to support.

If many coaches use these silly motivational tactics, isn’t that evidence that no one really does anything special to gain an advantage in these rivalry games?

In the last 10 seasons, the advantage is 10-8 in favor is OSU. We’ve won 3 of the last 5. Under Juwan, we are 1-2 against them, one of which Livers was hurt. If they have such a distinct advantage for how they get up for rivalries, you’d think they’d be much farther ahead of us in recent years.

I like the way Mich is handling being the hunted by every conference opponent this year. They don’t get rattled. Who knows if Eli didn’t miss the @ Mn game they still may be unbeaten.:wink:

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Well I don’t see why there would be pushback against the idea of learning from a rival that beats us more than we beat them regardless of talent disparities, but I don’t want to repeat myself. If you want evidence, you have W/L records, and nothing better than that to gauge sports performance. If you still disagree, you disagree. Fair enough. We’re not required to agree on every topic.

Given how bad we looked at MN it is hard to say Eli means that much. However, this team just fits together so we’ll when everyone is in their natural roles. Taking any of the top six guys off the court throws everything off and it is easy to see the domino effect.

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Eli had a rough day on D and it’s still really hard to say he had a bad game.Tells me plenty about his value.


I just don’t know what tangible thing we would learn from them. Since we’ve been on relatively equal footing, it’s about 50/50.

It’s an unprovable point that they somehow prep better or care more than we do in tangible ways. It’s just something people say after the fact.

OSU doesn’t cultivate any rivalry besides Michigan. They are extremely resistant to playing any games with other Ohio schools. Arguably their biggest basketball rival is Cincinnati, a team that they’ve scheduled three times in the last 98 years.

The dawn of the Legend of Archie Miller was his first NCAA game at Dayton, when the 11th seed Flyers upset OSU. OSU hasn’t played a regular season game against Dayton in 35 years.

OSU hasn’t played a regular season game against Xavier since FDR’s first term.


I think these are important points to understanding the culture at OSU. I also think they are related.

It’s all about being THE (caps intended) premier athletic university in the state of Ohio, limiting opportunities to unfavorable comparisons to mid-majors and smaller schools, and locking up the state at the borders to other universities who try to recruit kids from Ohio, starting with TTUN–or whatever they are calling :x:ichigan these days.

Is it weird to us? Sure. Cultish, even. But being the major player in a talent-rich state is a huge advantage for Buckeyes football. Yes, they recruit nationally, but they typically are at least in the running for every in state kid football wants.

In basketball, the roster is not Ohio-heavy. The smaller roster doesn’t warrant the huge investment in locking the state down, like they do in football, but you see Holtmann embracing the antics (and creating new spins on old football classics) because of the culture that football has built there.


I think those last two posts by @rlcBlue and @Tom48160 are very well put. They seem a bit Neanderthal-like to us and at times seem to be magnified in an echo chamber within their fan base to unhealthy levels - but obviously the success of their university is unquestioned. The dwarf all other Ohio schools in size, funding, graduate programs, athletics, etc. I think it is a bit silly to define yourself as much as they do in relation to our failures as to their own successes - but it is what it is.

Pretty wild that they seem to go out of their way to avoid playing other schools within the state.


@rlcBlue, that’s really interesting! I think I remember hearing that when Miller’s Dayton played them, but I had no idea the extent of it. And it’s crazy to think that for all the success Cincinnati has had, there is another particular university in Ohio with a good program that has played them just three 3 times in 98 years. Wow. Not a totally-alien mentality – way back when, UM opposed letting MSU into the conference, right? But to me, you can’t look at that without imagining how deep that is in that culture and how consistent they’ve been in acting on it.

And that comment seems like a natural fit.

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Yes, the dynamic in Ohio is different - it’s not the classic “elite school vs. ag school” like we have in Michigan and in so many states to the west. OSU is much more like Penn State in this way; the big state school insisting that its athletic programs prove that it is the flagship academic institution in the state, while bemused alumni of Oberlin and Case and Penn and Carnegie Mellon shrug their shoulders and go back to their concordances and slide rules.