Jevhon Shepherd and Anthony Wright and Grady and LLP are JB's fault?
No more than he should be credited for Levert
The list goes.........THJ, Levert...........crickets. I'm not placing Nik in That category because his improvement was more about increased opportunity vs dramatic improvement. He was lethal as a freshman but was limited to being a sideshow because of Trey.Natural development - Trey, Nik, Jmo, Novak
Since my copy-paste isn’t working, I’ll just say:
jennifer-lawrence-yeah-ok dot gif
.Where is the large sample size of players that have significantly improved under JB?
The list goes…THJ, Levert…crickets. I’m not placing Nik in That category because his improvement was more about increased opportunity vs dramatic improvement. He was lethal as a freshman but was limited to being a sideshow because of Trey.
I don’t see how you can’t give JB and staff some of the credit for the development of Nik, Darius and Trey.
Point is, I think people are much more focused on JB’s success to the point where it blinds some people to some things that might be a concern down the road rather than looking at certain things (ie recruiting, player development) independent of what JB has done in terms of the past team success. That’s natural, this a UM site and JB is our leader.
I’ll say this…if we don’t pull in some serious talent in 16, Im anxious to see what the reaction will be 2 years from now because the seeds for that season are being planted at this very moment.
.Where is the large sample size of players that have significantly improved under JB?
The list goes…THJ, Levert…crickets. I’m not placing Nik in That category because his improvement was more about increased opportunity vs dramatic improvement. He was lethal as a freshman but was limited to being a sideshow because of Trey.
I don’t see how you can’t give JB and staff some of the credit for the development of Nik, Darius and Trey.
Great point with Dmo, staff has to get a lot if credit with him. With Trey and Nik, they would’ve been great players regardless of the coach, they were simply that good and it was evident during their freshman seasons.
MattD – Spot on. Role players are great and needed, but we need a couple studs.
Matt - this, to me, is just pure nonsense:
Where is the large sample size of players that have significantly improved under JB?
The list goes…THJ, Levert…crickets. I’m not placing Nik in That category because his improvement was more about increased opportunity vs dramatic improvement. He was lethal as a freshman but was limited to being a sideshow because of Trey.
Comment: Yeah, Nik was really “lethal” in the Louisville game when Trey went out with two fouls. Give me a break. No one in their right mind would argue Nik merely “just had more opportunities” this year. He was remarkably better in every facet of the game, whether it’s passing, mid-range shooting, or taking it to the basket.
The list of players that remained stagnant…Manny, Gr3, Vogrich, Horford, Max, Wright, Sheopard, Grady, Smot…sad part is 3 of those players had really high ceilings, but none developed presumably because they weren’t “shooters.”
Comment: Manny only remained “stagnant” from his sophomore to junior year (when he had a bad ankle for much of the year). For his career, he certainly got better. GR3? The bottom line is that while Stauskas and Levert spent the summer at Camp Sanderson reshaping their bodies and working hard on their games, GR3 did not. And it showed. He should have come back, and had he dedicated himself like Caris and Nik, I think he would have easily been a first round pick. As far as the other guys you mention, some guys just aren’t that good, period. Vogrich didn’t seem capable of playing at this level. Shepard? Great athlete, limited skill. I did think perhaps he should have played more. Smot? He improved a lot from his freshman to sophomore year, he just didn’t have the mental toughness to hack it, IMO. Horford? I agree, he didn’t improve much, but then I’m not sure what you could do with him.
Natural development - Trey, Nik, Jmo, Novak
Comment: Yeah, Trey “naturally” developed into the national POY. OK. Had nothing to do with coaching, and the offense we run. He could have played at MSU and achieved exactly the same results.
See my comments above regarding Nik.
J-Mo? Maybe the worst argument you’ve made. The kid’s dad didn’t even think he was a Big Ten caliber player. He came here, totally reshaped his body, and became a key contributor. Novak? That’s comical too.
For a Michigan basketball “fan,” your commentary doesn’t reflect it. I don’t know what to make of that. You do realize, right, that a good deal of our elite recruiting under Frieder and Fisher was, well, not exactly within the rules? And even if we got more talent back in those days, the program is currently winning at a clip that is just as good as anything we did back then (other than winning it all in 1989).
Honestly, I just find it annoying that you’re so negative about Michigan basketball under Beilein. We’ve been as competitive as any team in college basketball over the last few years, we are a fun team to watch, we put plenty of guys in the pros, and we don’t cheat to get our players. But yeah, you should continue on with your diatribes against the coach and the way he recruits. I’m sure you have a much better plan.
Honestly, you should go root for Kentucky. You love pure athletes, you love star rankings, and you refuse to acknowledge the rampant cheating they engage in to get their players. You’d be a perfect Kentucky fan.
Point is, I think people are much more focused on JB's success to the point where it blinds some people to some things that might be a concern down the road rather than looking at certain things (ie recruiting, player development) independent of what JB has done in terms of the past team success. That's natural, this a UM site and JB is our leader.I’ll say this…if we don’t pull in some serious talent in 16, Im anxious to see what the reaction will be 2 years from now because the seeds for that season are being planted at this very moment.
A concern down the road? You can’t be serious.
JB has singlehandedly pulled this program from the depths into the national spotlight and has put Michigan back on the map. Not only that, he has done so with class and integrity.
As for your individual concerns: he has already pulled in the #1 recruit in the country (at the time), as well as several top-50 players (with, I might mention, many in the upcoming classes considering M highly). He has developed numerous unheralded players into lottery picks. He has taken us to the NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP GAME. We have won 2 B1G championships (and were a tip-in away from three consecutive). What else could you ask for? I think JB’s past success should be heavily considered in these things like player development, recruiting, etc…
The best part? The trajectory is up. This is a golden age of Michigan basketball; sit back and enjoy it!
MattD -- Spot on. Role players are great and needed, but we need a couple studs.
Yeah, A couple studs would be great, but they are not easy to get.
Ben, You don’t seem to understand the following:
- You don’t win many recruiting battles going up against the established elite programs. Ask Izzo how that’s been going for him, and he’s had long and sustained success beyond our wildest dreams.
- Three highly successful seasons does not make you on the same level as the established elite programs. The UofM program was seriously dead from 1998-1999 until JB’s second season. You can’t erase that easily or blink your eyes and wish it away. Most of the guys we are targeting knew very little about Michigan or cared about Michigan a few years ago.
- Five stars sometimes bring as many negatives as they bring positives. You’ve got to get the right ones, and every program wants those guys.
- Sometimes recruiting is an uneven playing field. Some programs “offer” more than just a scholarship.
- Not getting those elite talents does not mean doom is upon us.
- Getting unheralded guys works just fine. Success can be had. It has been proven already, especially at Michigan, Butler, and Wisconsin in recent years.
- Constantly posting the same whiny, sarcastic, negative rubbish repeatedly in multiple threads does not aid in people hearing your actual point or message. It just makes you sound childish, immature, and uninformed.
I actually think you have valid concerns. Most of us want the top dogs, often it’s disappointing to not land them. Nobody is saying things are perfect, nobody thinks Beilein is perfect, but he certainly isn’t doing a bad job either. Please get some perspective…
Wow, the Beilein bashing is absurd! One of the top ten coaches in the country with the most efficient offense over the past two years. Some of you guys have lost your mind!
I tend to agree about GR3, but as a coach it is your job to ensure that players (a) maximize their talents and (b) put those players in the best position to succeed, and from that standpoint I think JB could've done better, especially with regard to (b)
The number one priority of a coach at college level is to win games, player development is always secondary. If a coach can recruit like Cal has done in Kentucky, he does not have to develop players, even if he wants to, he has a little over 4 months anyway. And every coach has to put some of their players on bench, which does not help their development.
Matt - this, to me, is just pure nonsense:Time to be resepectfully honest with you - I find most of your commentary to be absolute garbage. All you do is "whine" about anybody that you consider to be a "whiner" - what that really translates to is "how dare you have the audacity to question JB, he is beyond question in light of his past accomplishments, and I'm going to call anybody out that attempts to compromise his status"Where is the large sample size of players that have significantly improved under JB?
The list goes…THJ, Levert…crickets. I’m not placing Nik in That category because his improvement was more about increased opportunity vs dramatic improvement. He was lethal as a freshman but was limited to being a sideshow because of Trey.
Comment: Yeah, Nik was really “lethal” in the Louisville game when Trey went out with two fouls. Give me a break. No one in their right mind would argue Nik merely “just had more opportunities” this year. He was remarkably better in every facet of the game, whether it’s passing, mid-range shooting, or taking it to the basket.
The list of players that remained stagnant…Manny, Gr3, Vogrich, Horford, Max, Wright, Sheopard, Grady, Smot…sad part is 3 of those players had really high ceilings, but none developed presumably because they weren’t “shooters.”
Comment: Manny only remained “stagnant” from his sophomore to junior year (when he had a bad ankle for much of the year). For his career, he certainly got better. GR3? The bottom line is that while Stauskas and Levert spent the summer at Camp Sanderson reshaping their bodies and working hard on their games, GR3 did not. And it showed. He should have come back, and had he dedicated himself like Caris and Nik, I think he would have easily been a first round pick. As far as the other guys you mention, some guys just aren’t that good, period. Vogrich didn’t seem capable of playing at this level. Shepard? Great athlete, limited skill. I did think perhaps he should have played more. Smot? He improved a lot from his freshman to sophomore year, he just didn’t have the mental toughness to hack it, IMO. Horford? I agree, he didn’t improve much, but then I’m not sure what you could do with him.
Natural development - Trey, Nik, Jmo, Novak
Comment: Yeah, Trey “naturally” developed into the national POY. OK. Had nothing to do with coaching, and the offense we run. He could have played at MSU and achieved exactly the same results.
See my comments above regarding Nik.
J-Mo? Maybe the worst argument you’ve made. The kid’s dad didn’t even think he was a Big Ten caliber player. He came here, totally reshaped his body, and became a key contributor. Novak? That’s comical too.
For a Michigan basketball “fan,” your commentary doesn’t reflect it. I don’t know what to make of that. You do realize, right, that a good deal of our elite recruiting under Frieder and Fisher was, well, not exactly within the rules? And even if we got more talent back in those days, the program is currently winning at a clip that is just as good as anything we did back then (other than winning it all in 1989).
Honestly, I just find it annoying that you’re so negative about Michigan basketball under Beilein. We’ve been as competitive as any team in college basketball over the last few years, we are a fun team to watch, we put plenty of guys in the pros, and we don’t cheat to get our players. But yeah, you should continue on with your diatribes against the coach and the way he recruits. I’m sure you have a much better plan.
Honestly, you should go root for Kentucky. You love pure athletes, you love star rankings, and you refuse to acknowledge the rampant cheating they engage in to get their players. You’d be a perfect Kentucky fan.
On a macro level, all you do is provide a laundry list of excuses as to why certain players (ie GR3, Manny,Wright, Vogrich, Smot, Horford, and your classy “the other guys”) either didn’t improve under JB. It’s either they were injured, didn’t spend the summer in AA, had limited skill, lacked mental toughness, and the best of all - not capable of playing at this level. So in your mind, it’s just not possible that JB didn’t develop those guys to their full potential and therefore should not be accountable in the slightest bit. Again, this is just pure garbage at it’s finest. You selectively choose to hold JB in high regard to those players that did experience large jumps in production/skill development (ie THJ & Levert), but yet he bears no accountablility for those players that failed to do the same…ABSOLUTE & TOTAL HYPOCRISY…IF THE MAN IS GOING TO GET THE CREDIT FOR DEVELOPMENT OF PLAYERS THAT DO MAKE A JUMP, THEN HE DAMN SURE SHOULD BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR THOSE PLAYERS THAT DO NOT…FURTHERMORE YOU DO UNDERSTAND THAT JB ACTUALLY RECRUITED THESE PLAYERS…SO IF THEY DIDN’T HAVE THE SKILL AS YOU CLAIM, HE SHOULD BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR BRINGING THEM IN…IN OTHER WORDS, NO EXCUSES.
Point by point:
Nik - this is quite frankly, absurdity at it’s finest. You selectively choose ONE game in support of your theory that Nik significantly improved because of JB. Well yeah, let me do that too…well let’s see here, there was that outburst against Florida in the tournament or the coming out party vs Pitt or the offensive show vs. NC State. Hell, while you’re at it, why not mention that he was only more efficient than Trey Burke running PnR as a freshman, and that with a decent sample size. So yes, the evidence was there that Nik was going to be good regardless of the coach and/or system. How you fail to see that is beyond me, but again, you will do anything to promote JB being God, so I understand completely.
Manny - his skillset did not improve much at UM over the 3 years (I know, it’s all about the injury), at that was reflected in his brief NBA stints. Still couldn’t shoot, still couldn’t handle, and after 3 years in college… he still couldn’t go left to save his life. At the end of the day, he was still the same guy he was as a freshman… a guy that flourishes in transition, plays decent D, but can’t properly space the floor as a 2 because he can’t shoot, and needs the ball in his hand high volumes in order to be productive. In other words, a SF stuck in SG body, the same thing he was as a freshman.
Trey - you hit the nail on the head, if he played for Izzo, he could’ve won POY, his game was simply that good at the college level, and anyone with an ounce of objectivity could see that he was going to be great as a freshman, it’s not as if he morphed into a great player after a freshman campaign in which he was simply average.
JMo - notice how you were compelled to point toward his physical transformation rather than an increase in skill/ production. That should be credited to Jmo personally with a nod to Mr. Sanderson rather than JB. That being said, JMo’s skill and/or production certainly didn’t improve while at UM. Still has no footwork, still can’t shoot, still has no handle. You claim he developed into a “key contributor”, he didn’t “develop” into anything, he was a key contributor as a freshman, and if anything, he remained stagnant in those terms, from his freshman to senior year. Your contentions regarding Jmo are borderline delusional
Go get a pom pom if you’re going to offer blind support, this is a basketball form for UM, there are people that love anything JB does (IE you, Voltron) and others that will critique his recruiting and/or strategies on an individual basis (ie Myself, Chez, Guestavo). Truth is, you have NO INDEPENDENT opinion on anything UM basketball related, you simply defer to JB because it’s just easier/ more “fan” like to do that.
MattD
The coaching staff should be viewed with a critical eye and I think you bring up a lot of good points here, but the whole argument you present is a bit silly given the past three years. I love your passion for UofM, but sometimes I think you just love to debate and get off on going against the grain.
Here is my $0.02: Beilein’s success has less to do with the player development and more to do with early talent evaluation, with a keen eye towards a player’s intrinsic motivation, potential to improve, and willingness to be coached. Even in talent evaluation, he certainly has had his share of misses. But where he has been so successful is the ones that have hit, have hit in a big way and helped lead to B1G championships, National Runner-up, Elite 8. He just seems to have a knack for identifying these guys before other coaches see their full potential. Ultimately he can give support and guidance to help a player develop, but a player has to do the work physically and mentally.
And I do think Beilein should get a lot of credit for Burke and Nik. Maybe not as much in regards to player development, but certainly in identifying them and getting them in the Maize and Blue in the first place. They absolutely were under the radar, or else they would have been offered by the blue bloods and we never would have got them.
Food for thought…how are consensus 4star/top 100 players with high major offers “under the radar”? Please stop with this narrative…it’s so frustrating.
Guys I’m going to make a legal analogy (practicing fed criminal lawyers feel free to correct) to what’s going on with some blind supporters:
Per the federal rules of evidence, “character” evidence or “prior specific bad acts” are generally not permitted into evidence in the courtroom under rule 404 of evidence (subject to exceptions of course, specifically in criminal cases).
The rational behind this is that a jury is more inclined to convict the defendant on the basis of his reputation/previous acts, rather than considering the weight of the evidence against/for the defendant in this SPECIFIC charge/allegation. In other words, the jury should not be tainted because it compromises their ability to be objective regarding the issue at hand.
Using 404 as it applies to UM/JB, I think some people are using JB’s past on court success/ to validate/give blind support to current recruiting and/or strategy rather than analyzing the recruiting and/or strategy independent of what occured in the past. Point is, the past success/character/reputation does not necessarily indicate that the current recruiting and/or strategy is good, it should be assessed independent from the past success.
This thread has gotten out of control. Closing it… Let’s try to keep it more civil next time guys.