Michigan won a share of the big ten title with 1.5 guys who could create their own shot a few years ago. Beilein's system will generate offense without one on one slashers
That was a different B1G and an anomaly.
Odds of Irvin/Walton going pro aren't very high.Based on what?
And that team is 1 playmaker to short.Who are the playmakers on MSU in '15? Valentine and who else?
Harris, Forbes, Nairns can all get shots from a static position. Ellis and Bess look like great they can too.
Walton, Irvin, Chatman, MAAR is a small pool of potential candidates
I guess then it’s a good thing Michigan doesn’t run the same system as MSU. Michigan’s system doesn’t seem like it’s designed to get many shots from a static position.
Apples-Oranges IMO
Michigan won a share of the big ten title with 1.5 guys who could create their own shot a few years ago. Beilein's system will generate offense without one on one slashersThat was a different B1G and an anomaly.
It was still a very good B1G and yes, it was a team that overachieved. But the year later the team still had 1.5 guys who could create (Nik could, but rarely was able to) and it made it to national championship game. The staff puts out a different blue print every year but over the last four years or so have been very successful in whichever players they rolled out. Personally, I think all of JB’s teams going forward will be more talented than the one with Novak, Stu, Morgan, Timmy and Trey that had very little depth behind them.
Odds of Irvin/Walton going pro aren't very high.Based on what?
And that team is 1 playmaker to short.Who are the playmakers on MSU in '15? Valentine and who else?
Harris, Forbes, Nairns can all get shots from a static position. Ellis and Bess look like great they can too.
Walton, Irvin, Chatman, MAAR is a small pool of potential candidates
I guess then it’s a good thing Michigan doesn’t run the same system as MSU. Michigan’s system doesn’t seem like it’s designed to get many shots from a static position.
Apples-Oranges IMO
So true, Beilein’s offense never fails to create open shots by sharing and moving the balls. Beilein was hailed as best offensive mind before he had real play makers like Morris and Burke.
That was a different B1G and an anomaly.
Guest , that’s one of your weaker statement’s to support your point. Beilein’s system should get more credit than an anomaly! He’s certainly deserves the accolades for his results and recruiting to fit the program. I would say there are many other players that over achieved in his system, including Zach, Stu, his son and add Gansey to the list. All played in final 8’s.
And to answer your question. Walton is a solid PG but no different than most other good college PGs and doesn't offer anything special that equates to an early entry NBA draft pick.As for Irvin, his game isn’t well rounded enough to be drafted as an early entry either. He can shoot but not much else.
And like I said, if somehow either one dispels those scouting reports and plays their way into the NBA draft that is awesome because it means michigan had a hell of a season
You should always plan as if they will.
And that team would be behind OSU, Illinois, maybe Indiana, maybe Nebraska. maybe MSU, maybe Maryland and Wisconsin is always there. Add a playmaker and its different.
Funny how your tune changes to fit your agenda. I said this very same thing last season (that you have to plan for wings leaving) and you disagreed. Sometimes I feel like you argue just to argue.
Because you'd rather have a freshman wing on the bench for depth than sophomore Chatman as wing depth while starting a freshman stretch 4.Also, like I said, if Stauskas, Irvin, and LeVert are all on the 2015 roster I will never post again. I strongly believe one of those three will go pro after next season, it just isn’t clear who yet.
No, I never advocated for any type of Stretch 4. Did you not see me saying comb and true big after considering everything?
You can’t recruit NOW with the assurance that one of our wings leave. We deal with that when the issue comes but for now we have two obvious needs.
Chatman isn’t a bad stretch 4, as I think he plays that freshmen year, but the 2/3 makes use of his abilities a bit more in the long term. I also think Wilson is going to be awesome.
But now, when it fits your agenda, you think differently.
These discussions make me laugh sometimes.
First of all, I don’t think anyone believed Izzo was going to fall off a cliff. He’s one of the most well-known coaches in the game, and he’s going to get good players. With that said, MSU at various times was a major player for guys like Cliff Alexander, Tyus Jones, Jabari Parker, Jalen Brunson and Montique Gill-Ceasar, among others. If they only come out of 2014-2015 with what they have, and perhaps Swanigan to boot, I’d say we dodged a major bullet.
Deyonte Davis might be great. He may also be another Marquis Gray, a five-star, athletic, raw PF recruit who Izzo couldn’t do anything productive with.
As far as Ahrens, McQuaid and Bess, it’s well-documented we passed on all those guys. It’s entirely possible that was a mistake, and it will come back to haunt us, but I doubt it. Had we taken 2-3 of those guys, people on this board would be lamenting the fact that we were settling for lower ranked, lesser players. McQuaid, in particular, seems like an odd fit for Izzo, who likes well-built, athletic defenders. A guy like MAAR is more of an Izzo type recruit; McQuaid feels like he could be Russell Byrd, part two.
I like Valentine, I think Harris was a nice addition for them, and if they land Swanigan, they’ll be a top contender in the Big Ten come 2015. But they also hardly scare me. If they can’t win a Big Ten title or advance past the Elite Eight with a core group of four McDonalds All Americans (Harris, Payne, Appling, Dawson), three of whom were upperclassmen this past season, their current talent doesn’t scare me.
Meanwhile, I love the way some are turning Forbes into this great player already. How did Brandon Wood work out for MSU? Forbes played in a small conference, and yet he’s going to be a star, while Duncan Robinson couldn’t possibly be as good as Jalen Coleman? That makes sense.
As far as Michigan, we’ll be fine. Walton are Irvin are highly unlikely to leave after this year. Caris will. If get Dozier, we’re in great shape for 2015 IMO. If we miss, sure, we could use another playmaker. I don’t see that as some kind of fatal flaw, though, where we’re likely to miss the NCAA tournament, or have something else bad happen. I also think by 2015, both Walton and Chatman will be creators off the dribble (and of course so will Dozier if he comes).
I am not worried about the likes of Illinois, Nebraska, and others suddenly surpassing us. Those schools are getting good recruits, and it should only make the conference stronger. For the foreseeable future, I think Michigan will compete for Big Ten titles with the likes of Wisconsin, OSU, Indiana, and MSU, and a few other schools will be a notch lower (Illinois, Nebraska, Maryland, perhaps Iowa), but of course competitive.
One thing I think people are really undervaluing right now is the height and length this team will have. Last year, we played with Morgan at the five, and Horford spelled him (though he didn’t play that much down the stretch). Donnal, Doyle, and Wilson IMO all give us more height and length than Morgan did, which will (one they gain the necessary experience) make our interior defense better than it was last year. I know most people think the opposite, but I don’t. Moreover, I think Irvin will give us more length on the perimeter, and one more year of experience from Walton and Caris will help.
These discussions make me laugh sometimes.First of all, I don’t think anyone believed Izzo was going to fall off a cliff. He’s one of the most well-known coaches in the game, and he’s going to get good players. With that said, MSU at various times was a major player for guys like Cliff Alexander, Tyus Jones, Jabari Parker, Jalen Brunson and Montique Gill-Ceasar, among others. If they only come out of 2014-2015 with what they have, and perhaps Swanigan to boot, I’d say we dodged a major bullet.
As things stand now, Izzo has a good class if he gets McQuaid. But nothing to write home about. Swanigan would bump that up significantly. His big misses at PG - Jones and Brunson - could be an issue depending on how Nairns works out.
And to answer your question. Walton is a solid PG but no different than most other good college PGs and doesn't offer anything special that equates to an early entry NBA draft pick.As for Irvin, his game isn’t well rounded enough to be drafted as an early entry either. He can shoot but not much else.
And like I said, if somehow either one dispels those scouting reports and plays their way into the NBA draft that is awesome because it means michigan had a hell of a season
You should always plan as if they will.
And that team would be behind OSU, Illinois, maybe Indiana, maybe Nebraska. maybe MSU, maybe Maryland and Wisconsin is always there. Add a playmaker and its different.
Funny how your tune changes to fit your agenda. I said this very same thing last season (that you have to plan for wings leaving) and you disagreed. Sometimes I feel like you argue just to argue.
Did you even read the thread you quoted?
These discussions make me laugh sometimes.First of all, I don’t think anyone believed Izzo was going to fall off a cliff.
Do I have to go back and quote all of it?
Michigan won a share of the big ten title with 1.5 guys who could create their own shot a few years ago. Beilein's system will generate offense without one on one slashersThat was a different B1G and an anomaly.
It was still a very good B1G and yes, it was a team that overachieved. But the year later the team still had 1.5 guys who could create (Nik could, but rarely was able to) and it made it to national championship game. The staff puts out a different blue print every year but over the last four years or so have been very successful in whichever players they rolled out. Personally, I think all of JB’s teams going forward will be more talented than the one with Novak, Stu, Morgan, Timmy and Trey that had very little depth behind them.
With NBA level players at every position and the NPOY…2015 won’t have that kind of talent.
T As far as Ahrens, McQuaid and Bess, it's well-documented we passed on all those guys. Meanwhile, I love the way some are turning Forbes into this great player already. How did Brandon Wood work out for MSU? Forbes played in a small conference, and yet he's going to be a star, while Duncan Robinson couldn't possibly be as good as Jalen Coleman? That makes sense.
The Horizon league is 100000x the league that D3 is
JB didn’t pass on Bess…he was waiting on Booker and JBJR and Bess decided before then. Same with Ahrens and McQuaid.
As far as Michigan, we'll be fine. Walton are Irvin are highly unlikely to leave after this year.
We will see about that
I am not worried about the likes of Illinois, Nebraska, and others suddenly surpassing us. Those schools are getting good recruits, and it should only make the conference stronger. For the foreseeable future, I think Michigan will compete for Big Ten titles with the likes of Wisconsin, OSU, Indiana, and MSU, and a few other schools will be a notch lower (Illinois, Nebraska, Maryland, perhaps Iowa), but of course competitive.
You are in for a shock.
You’re totally off base about the Bess, McQuaid, and Ahrens recruitments - we could have offered any of them and it would have been highly likely they would have committed. We passed. End of story. And I see nothing with Bess that tells me I’d prefer him over MAAR or Dawkins.
As far as the other teams, I’m not chronic worrier, indeed I find it to be a weak character trait. If you think a couple decent recruits are going to lift Illinois and Nebraska past Michigan, well, that’s your right to think that. Won’t happen. In fact, let’s make a wager now - I’ll take Michigan from 2015-2017 to win more Big Ten games and NCAA tourney games than either Illinois or Nebraska. $50. You want that bet?
You're totally off base about the Bess, McQuaid, and Ahrens recruitments - we could have offered any of them and it would have been highly likely they would have committed. We passed. End of story. And I see nothing with Bess that tells me I'd prefer him over MAAR or Dawkins.
Thats how you see it but your perception is not based in reality.
As far as the other teams, I’m not chronic worrier, indeed I find it to be a weak character trait. If you think a couple decent recruits are going to lift Illinois and Nebraska past Michigan, well, that’s your right to think that. Won’t happen. In fact, let’s make a wager now - I’ll take Michigan from 2015-2017 to win more Big Ten games and NCAA tourney games than either Illinois or Nebraska. $50. You want that bet?
Sure with the obvious caveat that Dozier or another top 100 guard doesn’t commit.
Make it 2015-2016 since its much more manageable.
These discussions make me laugh sometimes.First of all, I don’t think anyone believed Izzo was going to fall off a cliff. He’s one of the most well-known coaches in the game, and he’s going to get good players. With that said, MSU at various times was a major player for guys like Cliff Alexander, Tyus Jones, Jabari Parker, Jalen Brunson and Montique Gill-Ceasar, among others. If they only come out of 2014-2015 with what they have, and perhaps Swanigan to boot, I’d say we dodged a major bullet.
Deyonte Davis might be great. He may also be another Marquis Gray, a five-star, athletic, raw PF recruit who Izzo couldn’t do anything productive with.
As far as Ahrens, McQuaid and Bess, it’s well-documented we passed on all those guys. It’s entirely possible that was a mistake, and it will come back to haunt us, but I doubt it. Had we taken 2-3 of those guys, people on this board would be lamenting the fact that we were settling for lower ranked, lesser players. McQuaid, in particular, seems like an odd fit for Izzo, who likes well-built, athletic defenders. A guy like MAAR is more of an Izzo type recruit; McQuaid feels like he could be Russell Byrd, part two.
I like Valentine, I think Harris was a nice addition for them, and if they land Swanigan, they’ll be a top contender in the Big Ten come 2015. But they also hardly scare me. If they can’t win a Big Ten title or advance past the Elite Eight with a core group of four McDonalds All Americans (Harris, Payne, Appling, Dawson), three of whom were upperclassmen this past season, their current talent doesn’t scare me.
Meanwhile, I love the way some are turning Forbes into this great player already. How did Brandon Wood work out for MSU? Forbes played in a small conference, and yet he’s going to be a star, while Duncan Robinson couldn’t possibly be as good as Jalen Coleman? That makes sense.
As far as Michigan, we’ll be fine. Walton are Irvin are highly unlikely to leave after this year. Caris will. If get Dozier, we’re in great shape for 2015 IMO. If we miss, sure, we could use another playmaker. I don’t see that as some kind of fatal flaw, though, where we’re likely to miss the NCAA tournament, or have something else bad happen. I also think by 2015, both Walton and Chatman will be creators off the dribble (and of course so will Dozier if he comes).
I am not worried about the likes of Illinois, Nebraska, and others suddenly surpassing us. Those schools are getting good recruits, and it should only make the conference stronger. For the foreseeable future, I think Michigan will compete for Big Ten titles with the likes of Wisconsin, OSU, Indiana, and MSU, and a few other schools will be a notch lower (Illinois, Nebraska, Maryland, perhaps Iowa), but of course competitive.
One thing I think people are really undervaluing right now is the height and length this team will have. Last year, we played with Morgan at the five, and Horford spelled him (though he didn’t play that much down the stretch). Donnal, Doyle, and Wilson IMO all give us more height and length than Morgan did, which will (one they gain the necessary experience) make our interior defense better than it was last year. I know most people think the opposite, but I don’t. Moreover, I think Irvin will give us more length on the perimeter, and one more year of experience from Walton and Caris will help.
Lot of good points LA, and I acknowledge your caveat that DeYonte Davis “might be great”, but he is ALREADY a far superior basketball player than Marquis Gray ever dreamed of being. Gray was the most overrated 5 star in this States history IMO and couldn’t make a 5 foot shot if you locked him in the gym over the weekend. He was an undersized pseudo enforcer that had very limited skills and no intangibles. I must have saw him play 20 times in HS and never once thought he was a Big 10 player. Davis is fluid ( seen him 4 times in person ) in movement, has a great shot, and is only scratching the surface of his potential. He is going to be a heckuva player IMO.
About a year ago, people were saying bad classes in 2014 and 2015 would finish Izzo...he has recovered nicely imo. Swanigan/Ellenson and McQuaid would cement that.Ironically, UM is in danger of coming up empty in 2015, while everyone else in the B1G is striking gold
So if MSU had two lean recruiting years (2013-2014) by Izzo’s historical standards, why is Michigan’s 2015 such a big deal? Didn’t you address your own concern in this very post?
About a year ago, people were saying bad classes in 2014 and 2015 would finish Izzo...he has recovered nicely imo. Swanigan/Ellenson and McQuaid would cement that.Ironically, UM is in danger of coming up empty in 2015, while everyone else in the B1G is striking gold
So if MSU had two lean recruiting years (2013-2014) by Izzo’s historical standards, why is Michigan’s 2015 such a big deal? Didn’t you address your own concern in this very post?
MSU had more talent stockpiled and the B1G was not as strong as it will be going forward.
I can agree with the “stockpile” because Izzo doesn’t get his guys to the NBA as quickly as Beilein does. It does create an additional challenge for JB.
About a year ago, people were saying bad classes in 2014 and 2015 would finish Izzo...he has recovered nicely imo. Swanigan/Ellenson and McQuaid would cement that.Ironically, UM is in danger of coming up empty in 2015, while everyone else in the B1G is striking gold
So if MSU had two lean recruiting years (2013-2014) by Izzo’s historical standards, why is Michigan’s 2015 such a big deal? Didn’t you address your own concern in this very post?
MSU had more talent stockpiled and the B1G was not as strong as it will be going forward.
B1G has been considered the top conference in college hoops the last few seasons.