Let's sit back and wait

A lot of season left and plenty of time for quality wins. Two big games next week. I already see the tired legs we saw last season but there will be time to fix things. We saw Wisconsin start worse then this last year non conference play and they made a 180 turn. Let’s not jump to conclusion yet


I will always respect the hell out of the basketball program because they made life bearable as a Michigan Sports fan during the football stretch from 2008-2014.

At times like this, I really bear down and support the team even more. This hurts no doubt, but I will do what I am able to do to support the team.


I was looking forward to the game with the idea that it would really be a bellweather for M’s 16-17 chances–if they couldn’t beat an unranked VTech at home. . . So what do they do? Play very suggestively well for long stretches and blow the game. I was down afterward, especially about the last shot by Zak; yet when I heard Beilein say they have contingencies when the first guy’s shot isn’t there, that they didn’t go to the next guy. . .

Not sure where this leaves me or the team. I suppose that by the time the next game goes around I will again be curious. . .

I appreciated Beilein admitting that there was a counter to the Irvin iso play, depending on how it was defended, and that Irvin didn’t go to the counter. Coach could have given a non-answer there or outright defended his senior player.

There have been times in the past few seasons where the team hasn’t played particularly smart, especially when running their offense. It’s distressing to see seniors continue to make mistakes in execution, not simply a matter of not making shots, but not running the play correctly to get the shot they want rather than the shot the defense wants them to take.

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I can have patience here, and agree that they can use this, but the schedule doesn’t let up so they will need to use it in less than a week.

My main concerns: a) Zak doing Zak things when shots aren’t falling, although I would say the earlier part of the second half when they got the lead back to 10, i was ready to say the opposite, b) the coach who says the intent was to do something else (than a heroball airball) b/c if he can’t mandate execution he doesn’t have control.

Its a journey, and I don’t care if we squeak into the tournament again if we are playing better, but this looked, smelled, tasted just like the ND game. Good teams/leadership/coaching hold 15pt leads, esp at home.

I’m to the point where Simpson/teske need to see the floor. We have run our best players in the ground already and lost to the only two good teams we’ve played. I don’t care if we win by two on Saturday, find a way to sit Walton/MAAR for 10 minutes each so that Simpson can play. Watson I need to see a bit more from but 7-10 from zak is probably a Good idea anyway. Whatever the reason we may be, we’ve played our best guys 38 minutes a night and still lost. Throw these you d kids out there and let them learn. Someone tell me if I’m wrong but MAAR/Irvin/Walton aren’t going to just improve by playing a ton. The only way this team gets better is by our freshman getting better and contributing. I wish we would start Simpson/Walton but I don’t see that happening and that’s a shame. Our d gets better and Walton not having to run the team helps IMO. For those opposed, all Walton does is shoot 3s, that’s absolutely it. So why not let him worry about scoring and let Simpson grow on the job.


I appreciate your ability to not jump to conclusions. But last night was bad, real bad.

I’m trying not to hijack the thread to make it into a Bash Zak thread, but I can’t help but be reminded that Beilein tried to help Zak fix his shot mechanics, only to have to abandon the effort because it created too big of a mental hurdle for Zak and made his shooting performance worse. That’s not the type of player who I want taking game winning shots, unless the ball is kicked out to him and he has nothing to think about besides catch-and-shoot.

I think Beilein believes that his offense is at it’s best when his players are not robots. There are options galore. Every back door play is an instance where a wing player broke off the play and ran to the basket and the player with the ball anticipated the same opportunity and delivered a good pass. Back door plays aren’t called, they are built into the offense as an option when defenders overplay their man.

Be design, Beilein gives a ton of control to his players, but they have to make good decision after good decision after good decision and execute in order to reward that faith.

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And before everyone jumps all over that statement, I understand v tech is in a power conference and a borderline tourney team but let’s face it their not very good. Also it’s a bad loss because we were completely dominating them most of the game and it’s clear in my eyes that we are the better team.

Couple things. First I don’t trust zach in tight situations. He’s going to be the downfAll of this team Down the line if he doesn’t smarten up. It sucks he played like that the final 8 minutes as the first 32 is exactly how he should play. Zach attacking the rim and pulling up mid range is good Zach.

Zach though sometimes dribbles aimlessly trying to go one on one and then takes a horrible shot, usually a bAd forced three. His decision making for a senior is horrendous. This is double a problem because people defer to him as the senior and as the go to guy and this isn’t what’s best for the teAm. This teAms strength is its balance.

Obviously that last play by Irvin was terrible. I couldn’t figure out why we were wasting all that clock and then just for that. Nothing was even being run after the first few seconds.Poor decision making and coaching there imo. If we weren’t out of timeouts, as soon as Zach started bouncing like that and time was winding I would have told someone to call a timeout.

Our defense reverted back to the previous belein squads, it was very soft and offered little resistance outside of charges. I think a huge reason we lost was djs foul trouble. His defense is pretty phenomenal thus far and so is his rebounding and his playing is contagious. They all ramp up the d when he’s out there. He was sorely missed on many easy baskets.

My boy maar was awesome early but bad late like zak. His offensive rebound was huge but he has to hit that open three, he also passed on another three the third to last possession, he then heAd faked the guy hard and was again wide open mid rAnge. Problem was he didn’t want/ wasn’t ready to shoot it, and missed a shot he should have hit if he was confident instead of fumbling it and second guessing He also went under that screen on the three which was lazy. Actually I don’t think it was lazy but the guy hasn’t pulled up like that all game so I think the quick three surprised me.

Another thing we blew was about ten back doors. I missed the South Carolina game but I imagine v tech overextending was similar. The game was tight so you could tell no one wanted to make the slightly risky back door pass but you got to. They All were open and on the way for easy twos, you can’t be scared to make the mistake and play nervous. Hit them on the back door and crush them for coming out to far. We could have had at least four baskets off of those had guys thrown the pass. V tech was handing us good looks.

Walton was quiet, but I was ok with him as everyone else was getting good looks in the offense so there was no reason to force it. Although I still am mad that he one time drove and had a fairly wide open lay in and passed it to the corner three instead. Please take the good 4 foot look.

Wagner looked awesome at times. I still am pounding home that he needs more touches/ looks. Give this man more ISO/ post ups. These bigs can’t guard him off the bounce or in the post. He showed again he has crafty moves down low with that early drop step. He should get 3-4 baskets like that a game. His offense is that good. I honestly want 10-12 shots out of him a game. We’re wasting his talents by not featuring him way more.

Very long post but I had a lot to say after that bad loss. We let that one get away. It felt like we were killing them yet never pulled away. This team remains a mystery and very frustrating.

I think you can have control of the system, even if you don’t have control of decision making on specific plays. The offense wasn’t flowing, people weren’t trying to move the ball, they were standing around waiting for someone else to rescue them, etc. That is what I expect JB to have control of, the fact that people stick to the script to find the best shot. If they continually do that, and don’t get frazzled when things don’t fall 2-3 times, we will generally be fine. It is the degree to which things fall apart (w/a Junior and Senior team) that makes it seem as though he lacks the influence to stabilize and keep things calm on court.

I think to Zak, being the senior leader of the team makes him think he has to take those shots. What it should mean (my view) is that he is accountable for making sure everyone else does what they are supposed to and doesn’t disintegrate so those shots aren’t required.

I am going to continue to harp that MAAR is a bench player who is starting. MAAR makes good plays but most of them are iso/broken type of plays making something happen. In the regular flow of the offense he is a liability (can’t consistently hit an open shot or create a jump shot on his own or off a pick or for others). And when he gets blown by on defense or burned by going under a pick and his man shoots wide open threes he is a liability. I would have rather started Irvin at the 2 and Duncan at the 3 with MAAR coming of the bench. This opens the floor more for offensive flow and the defense could not have been much worse.

Coach needs to get X more time and force Walton to play the 2 and be in attack mode. Use the cupcake games to let the freshman learn and make any mistakes before Big Ten play.


I feel like those are the exact things I’m saying and I agree 100%.

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Duncan had a good game yesterday but maar is much more valuable to the team. Maars offense> Duncan’s defense.

Maar would be a great bench player on a very good team. We’re not that. Certainly if it’s Duncan getting brought in over him, then that’s a huge mistake. He rarely outplays maar. Yesterday he only outplayed him for a half and that is pretty much as good as it gets for Duncan.

I think Duncan was more valuable to the team for the majority of last season than maar was. And it’s not like MAAR is a defensive stopper…historically much better than Duncan has been yes but again I thought Duncan did well yesterday defensively and has looked to be improving on that end as of late.

Duncan and MAAR bring such different strengths/weaknesses, that it really seems like their usage should vary based on each game. Duncan can shoot and has been the generally more efficient offensive player; MAAR brings slashing and better defense (I also bet JB values his ability to bring the ball down the court/initiate the offense more than most would).

But last night MAAR was pretty terrible, especially on defense, so Duncan should’ve gotten more minutes. When MAAR isn’t a sieve and hits 1/3 of his wide-open 3s, he probably deserves the minutes.

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Thought that execution was why the Douglass and Novak senior team played so well. Execution without getting frazzled.

Maybe late game collapses are bc we’re not playing subs more earlier.

That is exactly right, the most frustrating thing to me is that both Walton and Irvin are seniors who have been the main guys for 2 years and they are wildly inconsistent. Never know which player you will get even within a game.

The big curiously is what the team looks like offensively next year without Walton and Irvin especially Irvin. It has been said a lot that the team runs as Irvin goes with him gone does it become more of a team approach.

With the 3 or 4 ships we have over the next two classes JB has to get players who are athletes with the ball, can create and have the alpha dog mentality.

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I’m certainly not in the panic group right now, but that has a lot to do with my preseason expectations which were this is a bubble team that could find itself on either side. the usc game was pretty much over from the start but last night was a game Michigan should have won. You can make up for a couple of those each year and still make the tourney but you don’t want to see your margin for error start to shrink this early.

In terms of the team, I think you guys have hit on a big issue I agree with completely. That is the rotation. I’m really having trouble understanding what the coaches are doing with the rotation and it’s not just a single issue.

  1. The freshmen have to play more whether they are ready or not. It’s not like they are sitting behind a bunch of nba players. I understand they aren’t ready to play big minutes but you gotta give them a chance and at the same time rest the other guys.

  2. This relates to the first issue somewhat but the guard/wing rotation needs to be more constant in terms of someone coming in/out every couple minutes. Throw Duncan into the 3 mix (couldn’t do it last night bc of Wilson foul trouble) and rotate the 1-3 a lot more. The starters need a ton more rest and even if you give Watson more time, you still need another body when you are so reliant on those guys.

  3. Wagner needs to play at least 25 minutes a game regardless of his defensive issues. He is he only guy on this roster that has nba level talent at least on the offensive end. You gotta let him play more through his mistakes.

  4. Play the hot hand. Beilein really seems to have a tendency to go back to his usual late game lineup but when you have this many players who are so close in talent, just play the guys who are playing well that game.

Beilein has certainly changed his rotation in the past a lot after the first month of the season so there may be nothing to any of this at this point. As fans we always seem to forget that the coaches are also feeling their way through this as the season goes on and what happens in practice isn’t necessarily what happens in games. At this point all we know is that Michigan has what looks like a pretty high ceiling but also has what looks like a pretty mediocre floor.


I mean Maar was very good in the first half. He had s bad second half. I’m ok with playing who’s hotter but it seems on this board we jump to conclusions and suggestions moment to moment , as opposed to looking at the full history. Robinson having a better second half does not negate how he looked for the second half of last year and even early this year.

Maar is still overall a more important piece. He is stil the only one who has shown he can get to the rim and attack people off the bounce with any consistency. Zak and moe show this too at times. . He also is significantly better perimeter defender and he plays with great energy and gets those scrappy hustle plays.

The rotation we have now is pretty much correct although I’d love to see more minutes for moe he’s a thirty minute guy imo. Gotta let him play through mistakes like pointed out above. His offense is far to important