Great addition in Mortiz Wagner


#61

You must have despised Amaker then. Were you more patient in waiting for Amaker to reach the NCAAT?


#62
You must have despised Amaker then. Were you more patient in waiting for Amaker to reach the NCAAT?

To be fair, Amaker didn’t have the facilities than we do now. You don’t build the player development center and renovate Crisler to be Butler.


#63
You must have despised Amaker then. Were you more patient in waiting for Amaker to reach the NCAAT?

Thought he was a really poor developer of the talent he did have. It was beyond frustrating to watch our players remain stagnant in terms of getting better.


#64

Come on…

Beilein > Amaker, player development center or not.

If you are going to preface your post with “to be fair”, then actually be fair. Don’t just be an Amaker apologist.


#65

Wow… Being patient has worked for me. Beilein was a shot away from achieving your demands (multiple Final 4’s) without the instant impact personnel you speak of. That’s being honest.

Why do folk continue to expect every single freshman will step on campus and contribute? Would I want that? I sure would, but that’s not reality. Beilein recruits players who fit his system. He sees something in their game that he can use. Does it mean it will happen immediately? No it doesn’t, Beilein wants/needs players to learn his system and have it down to a science. Is Wagner a project? Without doubt he is, Every player coming in is a project, one and dones are far and Inbetween. Beilein may have recruited Wagner knowing he was a project that needs polishing, but who is to say he could afford to wait on him? Beilein had an available scholarship and made the choice to use it to lock Wagner (a Beilein prototype player) in. A Redshirt is not the curse some make it out to be. Try looking at it like when a NBA team Drafts a foreign player but leaves him overseas for further development. If we didn’t grab Wagner now he would not have been available later. I feel if fans learn to temper their high expectations they may learn to appreciate the game and their coach more.

Speaking for myself, I simply have no patience. I want results, and I want them now. Who in their right mind wants to sit through a few years of mediocrity when the only thing between us and multiple Final 4s is instant impact personnel? Call me greedy, but at least I’m honest.


#66

Trip into lala land? What are you even talking about. I just clearly demonstrated the dialouge that you, for some reason, kept insisting didn’t exist.


#67
93grad, you didn't read through the thread then. I shouldn't have to hold your hand and guide you through this.

Me: I literally asked for teams that can expect to make the Final 4 in consecutive years on a consistent basis.

SpikeAlbrecht: “Many”

Me: “name them”

SpikeAlbrecht: Gives a list that includes Michigan.

Please read the last two pages before responding again.

Wow. I will gladly never respond to one of your posts again. Not worth the trip into lala land.


#68

How many programs in the country can realistically expect to reach consecutive Final 4s on a consistent basis?


#69
Wow.... Being patient has worked for me. Beilein was a shot away from achieving your demands (multiple Final 4's) without the instant impact personnel you speak of. That's being honest.
Why do folk continue to expect every single freshman will step on campus and contribute? Would I want that? I sure would, but that's not reality. Beilein recruits players who fit his system. He sees something in their game that he can use. Does it mean it will happen immediately? No it doesn't, Beilein wants/needs players to learn his system and have it down to a science. Is Wagner a project? Without doubt he is, Every player coming in is a project, one and dones are far and Inbetween. Beilein may have recruited Wagner knowing he was a project that needs polishing, but who is to say he could afford to wait on him? Beilein had an available scholarship and made the choice to use it to lock Wagner (a Beilein prototype player) in. A Redshirt is not the curse some make it out to be. Try looking at it like when a NBA team Drafts a foreign player but leaves him overseas for further development. If we didn't grab Wagner now he would not have been available later. I feel if fans learn to temper their high expectations they may learn to appreciate the game and their coach more.

Speaking for myself, I simply have no patience. I want results, and I want them now. Who in their right mind wants to sit through a few years of mediocrity when the only thing between us and multiple Final 4s is instant impact personnel? Call me greedy, but at least I’m honest.

Huh? Three starters from 14 team were instant impact, not even counting Mitch and Irvin. In fact, instant impact players are the ONLY way we’ve had elite teams


#70
How many programs in the country can realistically expect to reach consecutive Final 4s on a consistent basis?

That’s basically my point, I want to be in that select group.


#71
Wow.... Being patient has worked for me. Beilein was a shot away from achieving your demands (multiple Final 4's) without the instant impact personnel you speak of. That's being honest.
Why do folk continue to expect every single freshman will step on campus and contribute? Would I want that? I sure would, but that's not reality. Beilein recruits players who fit his system. He sees something in their game that he can use. Does it mean it will happen immediately? No it doesn't, Beilein wants/needs players to learn his system and have it down to a science. Is Wagner a project? Without doubt he is, Every player coming in is a project, one and dones are far and Inbetween. Beilein may have recruited Wagner knowing he was a project that needs polishing, but who is to say he could afford to wait on him? Beilein had an available scholarship and made the choice to use it to lock Wagner (a Beilein prototype player) in. A Redshirt is not the curse some make it out to be. Try looking at it like when a NBA team Drafts a foreign player but leaves him overseas for further development. If we didn't grab Wagner now he would not have been available later. I feel if fans learn to temper their high expectations they may learn to appreciate the game and their coach more.

Speaking for myself, I simply have no patience. I want results, and I want them now. Who in their right mind wants to sit through a few years of mediocrity when the only thing between us and multiple Final 4s is instant impact personnel? Call me greedy, but at least I’m honest.

Huh? Three starters from 14 team were instant impact, not even counting Mitch and Irvin. In fact, instant impact players are the ONLY way we’ve had elite teams

I think the elite players that we did get shows that we tend to overstate the poor recruiting based on some high profile misses and lack of high rankings for players that turn out to be great. 14 didn’t really have instant impact guys but may still end up being a pretty good class, 15 so far is the only flat out bust and that can still change


#72

What? Did you actually say Michigan had an Elite team? But to respond to your comment, while they may have been instant impacts, you had no idea they were gonna have said impact when we first recruited them and received their commitment. You have no idea what impact Wagner or Duncan Robinson will have do you?

Wow… Being patient has worked for me. Beilein was a shot away from achieving your demands (multiple Final 4’s) without the instant impact personnel you speak of. That’s being honest.
Why do folk continue to expect every single freshman will step on campus and contribute? Would I want that? I sure would, but that’s not reality. Beilein recruits players who fit his system. He sees something in their game that he can use. Does it mean it will happen immediately? No it doesn’t, Beilein wants/needs players to learn his system and have it down to a science. Is Wagner a project? Without doubt he is, Every player coming in is a project, one and dones are far and Inbetween. Beilein may have recruited Wagner knowing he was a project that needs polishing, but who is to say he could afford to wait on him? Beilein had an available scholarship and made the choice to use it to lock Wagner (a Beilein prototype player) in. A Redshirt is not the curse some make it out to be. Try looking at it like when a NBA team Drafts a foreign player but leaves him overseas for further development. If we didn’t grab Wagner now he would not have been available later. I feel if fans learn to temper their high expectations they may learn to appreciate the game and their coach more.

Speaking for myself, I simply have no patience. I want results, and I want them now. Who in their right mind wants to sit through a few years of mediocrity when the only thing between us and multiple Final 4s is instant impact personnel? Call me greedy, but at least I’m honest.

Huh? Three starters from 14 team were instant impact, not even counting Mitch and Irvin. In fact, instant impact players are the ONLY way we’ve had elite teams


#73
"You've been taking a progressively aggressive tone with seemingly every post. At the end of the day we're talking about basketball. I enjoy sarcasm, but some of your posts the past few days are trending toward disturbing in my opinion. "

Well, I don’t really see much that’s objectionable in my post. But. . . you must know that your a lot of your posts have much the effect you describe.

Point taken. I readily accept that I can come off as arrogant, but I think some of your posts in recent days could be perceived as ‘angry’ if that makes sense. In any event, probably shouldn’t have put my nose where it didn’t belong because I don’t like it myself. My apologies.


#74
"He will always favor the Donnals and McLimanses and Wagners." What does this even mean--the Irish and the Italians? With the exception of our last two stellar starting big men--one of whom would have still been in the frontcourt if not for stupidity of the NCAA--he favors. . . guys who do not excel? Where is the logic in this? Doyle conveniently left out of the equation because he couldn't fit in your brain at the moment you coughed this up? Opinions are cheap, but we are stretching for some new lows here. . . as if a (now Rivals) four-star with Wagner's promise can simply be dismissed out of hand.

What really pisses me off about all of this criticism is that if McGary, Stauskas, and GRII had been here this year, or if Caris and Walton hadn’t been injured, this lame stuff would be nowhere to be found–FIVE GUYS WE WERE DOWN this year (hello!). Absent McGary, none of these guys would have fitted the bill with the anonymous basement savants on this board.

This said player would easily be the best Michigan frontcourt player and will certainly end up with a better career than say Donnal, Doyle etc…

A little premature, no?

Auguste had a pretty good season, and he looked quite good in the tournament. However, he averaged just under 4 points and 3 rebounds in 10 minutes a game as a freshman on a mediocre team that was blown out in the first round of the tournament. As a sophomore, he averaged 7 and 4 in 16 minutes per game for a team that finished under .500 and missed postseason play (similar to Doyle’s freshman numbers / Michigan’s season).

Your assertion might end up being correct. But to say that he will “certainly end up with a better career” than Doyle is completely laughable.

Maybe Doyle, I feel confident in the Donnal statement. Donnal had a redshirt year and the next year still had problems with court time. I don’t mind Doyle the thing with him is his actual offensive game is refined for his experience terrific footwork. The problem is he’s poor defensively in the post and grabbing rebounds. He shot the ball exceptionally well but can he repeat that while improving defensively and rebounding? If his shooting% takes a hit can he make up for it with defense/rebounding?

Donnal hasn’t showed enough to make me think that he’ll ever play at the level that Auguste did this year, but it’s not unreasonable to think that Doyle can.

Doyle’s offensive game is somewhat refined, but there is still room for reasonable improvement. He has a big frame, but he can greatly improve his lower body strength. That will help his explosiveness and his ability to get and maintain position on the block. Also, his conditioning was an issue this year. If he can stay healthy this summer, he should start the year in much better shape.

His biggest strengths on offense were as the roll man in PnR and in finishing close to the basket on dump-offs. He was pretty efficient in those situations, and I don’t really see him getting worse at that. I really think he can eventually be a good post up player. This year he seemed too hesitant and too slow to react when he got the ball in the post. But he has a good frame, decent feet, and a soft touch, so I think post play can eventually become a strength.

His defense and rebounding were obviously disappointing. I see no reason why he can’t develop into an adequate rebounder and post defender, though. He probably gave up a few rebounds / put backs each game by going for blocks that he had no chance at getting. He needs to be more disciplined in those situations. But the guy has a big frame and decent hands. He needs to be in position, put his butt into someone, and grab the damn ball.


#75
"He will always favor the Donnals and McLimanses and Wagners." What does this even mean--the Irish and the Italians? With the exception of our last two stellar starting big men--one of whom would have still been in the frontcourt if not for stupidity of the NCAA--he favors. . . guys who do not excel? Where is the logic in this? Doyle conveniently left out of the equation because he couldn't fit in your brain at the moment you coughed this up? Opinions are cheap, but we are stretching for some new lows here. . . as if a (now Rivals) four-star with Wagner's promise can simply be dismissed out of hand.

What really pisses me off about all of this criticism is that if McGary, Stauskas, and GRII had been here this year, or if Caris and Walton hadn’t been injured, this lame stuff would be nowhere to be found–FIVE GUYS WE WERE DOWN this year (hello!). Absent McGary, none of these guys would have fitted the bill with the anonymous basement savants on this board.

This said player would easily be the best Michigan frontcourt player and will certainly end up with a better career than say Donnal, Doyle etc…

A little premature, no?

Auguste had a pretty good season, and he looked quite good in the tournament. However, he averaged just under 4 points and 3 rebounds in 10 minutes a game as a freshman on a mediocre team that was blown out in the first round of the tournament. As a sophomore, he averaged 7 and 4 in 16 minutes per game for a team that finished under .500 and missed postseason play (similar to Doyle’s freshman numbers / Michigan’s season).

Your assertion might end up being correct. But to say that he will “certainly end up with a better career” than Doyle is completely laughable.

Maybe Doyle, I feel confident in the Donnal statement. Donnal had a redshirt year and the next year still had problems with court time. I don’t mind Doyle the thing with him is his actual offensive game is refined for his experience terrific footwork. The problem is he’s poor defensively in the post and grabbing rebounds. He shot the ball exceptionally well but can he repeat that while improving defensively and rebounding? If his shooting% takes a hit can he make up for it with defense/rebounding?


#76

"You’ve been taking a progressively aggressive tone with seemingly every post. At the end of the day we’re talking about basketball. I enjoy sarcasm, but some of your posts the past few days are trending toward disturbing in my opinion. "

Well, I don’t really see much that’s objectionable in my post. But. . . you must know that your a lot of your posts have much the effect you describe.


#77
"6 if you count Horford...but who's counting." Cheers 93 Grad. I don't even want to ask how our now departed Zen philosopher Horford does or does not fit into the obscure typology of Mclimans-Donnal-Wagner. . . I'll admit that I expected him to be a pretty sturdy resource by his senior year.

Just maybe worth adding where ridiculous fan expectations are concerned that fans routinely LAMBASTED Morgan for missing bunnies, dropping the ball, and being a general bum even as he led or sat near the top of the conference in field goal percentage for two straight years. There is no winning with some people, least of all one’s own fans.

Seriously man, relax. It’s not that serious. You’ve been taking a progressively aggressive tone with seemingly every post. At the end of the day we’re talking about basketball. I enjoy sarcasm, but some of your posts the past few days are trending toward disturbing in my opinion.


#78
"He will always favor the Donnals and McLimanses and Wagners." What does this even mean--the Irish and the Italians? With the exception of our last two stellar starting big men--one of whom would have still been in the frontcourt if not for stupidity of the NCAA--he favors. . . guys who do not excel? Where is the logic in this? Doyle conveniently left out of the equation because he couldn't fit in your brain at the moment you coughed this up? Opinions are cheap, but we are stretching for some new lows here. . . as if a (now Rivals) four-star with Wagner's promise can simply be dismissed out of hand.

What really pisses me off about all of this criticism is that if McGary, Stauskas, and GRII had been here this year, or if Caris and Walton hadn’t been injured, this lame stuff would be nowhere to be found–FIVE GUYS WE WERE DOWN this year (hello!). Absent McGary, none of these guys would have fitted the bill with the anonymous basement savants on this board.

This said player would easily be the best Michigan frontcourt player and will certainly end up with a better career than say Donnal, Doyle etc…

A little premature, no?

Auguste had a pretty good season, and he looked quite good in the tournament. However, he averaged just under 4 points and 3 rebounds in 10 minutes a game as a freshman on a mediocre team that was blown out in the first round of the tournament. As a sophomore, he averaged 7 and 4 in 16 minutes per game for a team that finished under .500 and missed postseason play (similar to Doyle’s freshman numbers / Michigan’s season).

Your assertion might end up being correct. But to say that he will “certainly end up with a better career” than Doyle is completely laughable.


#79

MattD, so what programs are there that realistically can expect to reach the Final 4 every season? You didn’t answer, you just dodged.


#80
Come on.......

Beilein > Amaker, player development center or not.

If you are going to preface your post with “to be fair”, then actually be fair. Don’t just be an Amaker apologist.

Think I’m infinitely more fair than the “In Beilein we Trust” or “Beilein > Izzo” sentiment that’s running rampant through the UM fanbase. Amaker didn’t get the job done and needed to go, but if you want to be fair then you have to acknowledge that he and Beilein are not on even playing fields