I agree with MattD.
I’ll add that the last few recruits will not keep us in National contention…I don’t care how good the coaching is.
I agree with MattD. I'll add that the last few recruits will not keep us in National contention.....I don't care how good the coaching is.
Bo Ryan basically took a bunch of 3* guys and 1 5* guy to the Final Four…and 1 pt from the national title game.
I guess that's the principle disagreement, because I don't think it will be fine if recruiting doesn't pick up. Our coaches have proven we can make a deep tourney run with a very talented roster, and have also proven they are incapable of doing so without a very talented roster...........which is what any rational person would expect. All comes down to this for me, if you want to win bring in good talent and the results should follow if coaching is good.
I guess it all depends too on what you call a successful year.
So what’s that line for everyone? Some think it’s NCAA Title or bust. Others think a Sweet 16 is fine.
I’d also say you mentioned “…proven they are incapable of doing so without a very talented roster.” Meh - I think there are more factors and one big one is BALANCE. I think Beilein wants a more balanced roster. We really haven’t had too many years with a balanced roster.
I think Beilein knows that he needs some constants. The whole roster turned over in about two years and that makes it really hard to be sustainable.
There needs to be a better balance and in an ideal world some of these kids that they brought in during this class will be solid upperclassmen when the 2016 class arrives. Having some of those constants can make the transition much easier.
Every player isn’t going to be a one and done, top-25 type.
Whether the standard is title or Sweet 16, UM hasn’t reached either without a very talented roster under JB. Bottom line for me, talent is necessary to win consistently.
Balance…a key word indeed. More athletes/defense, less one dimensional shooters please. Shooters are a good thing…in moderation. In JB’s defense though, it does seem he is targeting more multi-faceted players for 2016.
JB also recruited Desean Butler who was below the radar. He can find his guys.
Morris, Burke and Stauskas were top 100 guys LeVert was a year ahead and was Ohio POY. Had he been in the 2013 HS class, he would have been a top 30 player. Hardaway Jr is the son of an NBA player Joe Alexander was also coached by Huggins Gansey and Pittsnoggle were amazing college system players but not eliteOnly Dawkins fits in 1 of those first 3 categories, not MAAR (who I am high on) or Robinson or Doyle
Beilen and staff have a great eye for scouting but expecting an NBA talent from an unranked guy every class is absurd
I look at the roster in 2015-16 and I don’t see a lot of shooters if LeVert goes early as most expect. You have Irvin/Robinson that I would characterize as a shooter, Donnal as stretch five.
Walton, Chatman, Wilson, MAAR, Dawkins, Doyle? Some of those guys can shoot it, but I wouldn’t say shooting is the top attribute for any of those guys.
Don’t really say how you can say that this offense doesn’t need shooters.
We aren’t going to get Coleman. Let’s say we land DTJR and Leaf in 2016. Just like that the roster is balanced. I’m not going to worry about this until we start landing some 16 kids. If we are still getting no named guys in 16 it could be time to hit the panic button. No need to worry about it now.
Whether the standard is title or Sweet 16, UM hasn't reached either without a very talented roster under JB. Bottom line for me, talent is necessary to win consistently.Balance…a key word indeed. More athletes/defense, less one dimensional shooters please. Shooters are a good thing…in moderation. In JB’s defense though, it does seem he is targeting more multi-faceted players for 2016.
I look at the roster in 2015-16 and I don't see a lot of shooters if LeVert goes early as most expect. You have Irvin/Robinson that I would characterize as a shooter, Donnal as stretch five.Walton, Chatman, Wilson, MAAR, Dawkins, Doyle? Some of those guys can shoot it, but I wouldn’t say shooting is the top attribute for any of those guys.
Don’t really say how you can say that this offense doesn’t need shooters.
Dylan…no offense, but basketball is played on 2 sides of the court. To limit the discussion strictly to offense is foolish in my view. So, I do agree that Walton is a good 2 way player, and MAAR and Dawkins have the potential to be as well, but can we honestly say that Chatman, Wilson, and Doyle will be good defenders based on what we’ve seen?
2 way players after this year:
Walton - end of list as of now
Dawkins - potential but very limited on offensive end
MAAR - potential
Creators:
Walton
Chatman
Just Shooters after this year:
Irvin
Robinson
Donnal
Spike
Wilson - even though he can’t really shoot well, I place him here because as of right now he has no other utility
Going forward, creator is the obvious need, both at the PG and wing spot. Also, we really need a defensive oriented big man that can alter shots.
JB also recruited Desean Butler who was below the radar. He can find his guys.Morris, Burke and Stauskas were top 100 guys LeVert was a year ahead and was Ohio POY. Had he been in the 2013 HS class, he would have been a top 30 player. Hardaway Jr is the son of an NBA player Joe Alexander was also coached by Huggins Gansey and Pittsnoggle were amazing college system players but not eliteOnly Dawkins fits in 1 of those first 3 categories, not MAAR (who I am high on) or Robinson or Doyle
Beilen and staff have a great eye for scouting but expecting an NBA talent from an unranked guy every class is absurd
When people name the same 4 or 5 guys, it does little to convince me.
I can name others from his WVU days. Joe Herber. Darris Nichols. Alex Ruoff. Stu. Novak. These are guys that aren’t going to get you to the S16 on their own but you blend them with top 100 guys and they will. I’m not upset with the duncan schollie. I could have gone without the MAAR one though. I just think people need to hold up on the panic button for now.
JB also recruited Desean Butler who was below the radar. He can find his guys.Morris, Burke and Stauskas were top 100 guys LeVert was a year ahead and was Ohio POY. Had he been in the 2013 HS class, he would have been a top 30 player. Hardaway Jr is the son of an NBA player Joe Alexander was also coached by Huggins Gansey and Pittsnoggle were amazing college system players but not eliteOnly Dawkins fits in 1 of those first 3 categories, not MAAR (who I am high on) or Robinson or Doyle
Beilen and staff have a great eye for scouting but expecting an NBA talent from an unranked guy every class is absurd
When people name the same 4 or 5 guys, it does little to convince me.
I can name others from his WVU days. Joe Herber. Darris Nichols. Alex Ruoff. Stu. Novak. These are guys that aren't going to get you to the S16 on their own but you blend them with top 100 guys and they will. I'm not upset with the duncan schollie. I could have gone without the MAAR one though. I just think people need to hold up on the panic button for now.JB also recruited Desean Butler who was below the radar. He can find his guys.Morris, Burke and Stauskas were top 100 guys LeVert was a year ahead and was Ohio POY. Had he been in the 2013 HS class, he would have been a top 30 player. Hardaway Jr is the son of an NBA player Joe Alexander was also coached by Huggins Gansey and Pittsnoggle were amazing college system players but not eliteOnly Dawkins fits in 1 of those first 3 categories, not MAAR (who I am high on) or Robinson or Doyle
Beilen and staff have a great eye for scouting but expecting an NBA talent from an unranked guy every class is absurd
When people name the same 4 or 5 guys, it does little to convince me.
Once you said you’d rather have Robinson over MAAR I literally stopped reading, and this is coming from someone that was OK with the Robinson scholarship. That is…rather shocking.
I can name others from his WVU days. Joe Herber. Darris Nichols. Alex Ruoff. Stu. Novak. These are guys that aren't going to get you to the S16 on their own but you blend them with top 100 guys and they will. I'm not upset with the duncan schollie. I could have gone without the MAAR one though. I just think people need to hold up on the panic button for now.JB also recruited Desean Butler who was below the radar. He can find his guys.Morris, Burke and Stauskas were top 100 guys LeVert was a year ahead and was Ohio POY. Had he been in the 2013 HS class, he would have been a top 30 player. Hardaway Jr is the son of an NBA player Joe Alexander was also coached by Huggins Gansey and Pittsnoggle were amazing college system players but not eliteOnly Dawkins fits in 1 of those first 3 categories, not MAAR (who I am high on) or Robinson or Doyle
Beilen and staff have a great eye for scouting but expecting an NBA talent from an unranked guy every class is absurd
When people name the same 4 or 5 guys, it does little to convince me.
the topic was unranked guys who became NBA players and none of those guys qualify. And I think you are actually agreeing with the consensus that we need a few top 100 guys so I am not sure what you are contesting?
I agree with MattD. I'll add that the last few recruits will not keep us in National contention.....I don't care how good the coaching is.
Because I have been lucky enough to see MAAR and Dawson in open gym since they have been on campus, and I am the biggest critic of your knowledge of the game, I will be the first to log on to say nice scouting report Ben when you see they are actually pretty good for yourself.
MattR - - If they are only “pretty good” as you say…then that’s a LONG way from National contention…
Ben - good, great, pretty good, outstanding… you get the point. The man has seen the guy in open gym and from that he looks good in his opinion which is more than anything most others have around here for reference, which should be exciting.
I for one am on record saying with the current recruiting the program will continue to win. I like how MattD has his independent analysis and can like a player based on what he sees rather than how many stars are beside his name. We used to win with guys like Novak and Stu and a couple guys that just crept into the top 100. We still have an incoming top 30 player this year, and 2 more top 50 guys from last year and a couple inexperienced although talented 100ish ranked bigs. Oh and Caris. Caris may leave, but someone always seems to fill the void of the last guy a year later.
Ben - good, great, pretty good, outstanding.... you get the point. The man has seen the guy in open gym and from that he looks good in his opinion which is more than anything most others have around here for reference, which should be exciting.I for one am on record saying with the current recruiting the program will continue to win. I like how MattD has his independent analysis and can like a player based on what he sees rather than how many stars are beside his name. We used to win with guys like Novak and Stu and a couple guys that just crept into the top 100. We still have an incoming top 30 player this year, and 2 more top 50 guys from last year and a couple inexperienced although talented 100ish ranked bigs. Oh and Caris. Caris may leave, but someone always seems to fill the void of the last guy a year later.
My 2 cents: I don’t think we need 5 star players (a la the Derryck Thorton Jrs and TJ Leafs of the world) to be able to consistently win and even compete for national titles, but we do need top 100 talent. We can go on and on about how these unheralded recruits turn into something better than their ranking shows, but I’d be willing to bet that top 100 players (as ranked by the major scouting websites) are a safer bet to contribute (and eventually become NBA players) than the DIII player with a pretty stroke. I’m talking about the Seth Towns’ and Nik Stauskas’ of the world. We don’t need world beater 1 and dones, but it would be nice to
Ben - good, great, pretty good, outstanding.... you get the point. The man has seen the guy in open gym and from that he looks good in his opinion which is more than anything most others have around here for reference, which should be exciting.I for one am on record saying with the current recruiting the program will continue to win. I like how MattD has his independent analysis and can like a player based on what he sees rather than how many stars are beside his name. We used to win with guys like Novak and Stu and a couple guys that just crept into the top 100. We still have an incoming top 30 player this year, and 2 more top 50 guys from last year and a couple inexperienced although talented 100ish ranked bigs. Oh and Caris. Caris may leave, but someone always seems to fill the void of the last guy a year later.
My 2 cents: I don’t think we need 5 star players (a la the Derryck Thorton Jrs and TJ Leafs of the world) to be able to consistently win and even compete for national titles, but we do need top 100 talent. We can go on and on about how these unheralded recruits turn into something better than their ranking shows, but I’d be willing to bet that top 100 players (as ranked by the major scouting websites) are a safer bet to contribute (and eventually become NBA players) than the DIII player with a pretty stroke. I’m talking about the Seth Towns’ and Nik Stauskas’ of the world. We don’t need world beater 1 and dones, but it would be nice to
Couldn’t agree more! And I am not arguing against getting top talent, just that regardless I see the team as a NCAA tourny team almost every year. Coach and staff are that good. But I do agree we have seen the team has much more potential over the last few years with better athletes and that is why they were so successful. 2016 Needs to attract some athletes and Dozier in 15 would be a real nice surprise as well!
Can’t for the life of me understand how easily that 2013 class came together with just moderate success on the court and since winning an outright big ten championship, elite 8 and ncaa title game, as well as 4 1st round picks over the last two years, it seems like such an uphill battle to get the more sought after kids to buy in and want to be in AA.
Robinson fills a need period…to try and extrapolate this into anything other than the coaching staff liking Robinson better than the '15 wings they had a realistic shot at seems a bit silly to me. It’s a calculated risk sure…but so is continuing to recruit Coleman or other wings who at this point have shown no real desire to commit to UM. So, UM finds a guy they really, really like in an unusual place…awesome. Robinson is a player, period. I don’t care what level he played…I’ve seen several videos of Coleman and talked to folks who have seen him up close and personal and there is nothing I see from him that automatically makes me think he would be a better fit than Robinson.
I don’t think there is any question Beilein and the staff understand the need for a big '16 recruiting class…I think the offers they’ve extended and the kids they are bringing to campus suggest that. But, on it’s face, the transfer of Robinson doesn’t suggest Beilein is settling or that he is trying to outsmart everyone. I know for a fact they think Robinson is an instant contributor…and I feel very, very confident that if Robinson was eligible in this season, he would be in the Top 8 or 9. FWIW, this isn’t just my opinion.
Just talked to Duncan about his commit. Legitimately great kid and all he wanted to talk about was how hard he was going to work this year to get ready to make an impact. Will have a full article in the morning.
Good to have you posting here @Tom_McC 
Please stay!