I stand by my MPJ/Malik Beasley comp (Porter obviously way better at rebounding)
I donāt watch enough non-Pistons NBA ball to really have a strong take here. But when watching the Pistons it feels like literally the entire ship is made out of Cade + Malik Beasley threes. Idk how good the modern advanced stats are at tracking this stuff, but looking at the Pistons bb ref advanced stats and seeing Duren listed as a positive player (on defense of all things!) really raises my eyebrows.
Durenās defensive value is nearly entirely tied to being a good rebounder and not the defending part of defense
The thing the Pistons do best as a team, with a bullet, compared to their peers, is rebound
They are 10th in offensive rebound rate, 2nd in defensive, and Duren is among the best in the league at both (Stewart excellent defensive rebounder as well)
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we donāt know that. they mightāve had him first.
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Thatās not a particularly impressive positive for a 5. DARKO has him more like league average on D.
But in general large guys are way better on D than small guys and most of the league is way smaller than the large guys.
And yeah BPM is only working with box score stats to allocate D credit in any case so itās not gonna do that well.
Raw RAPM, DARKO, EPM, eye test, tarot cards can all be consulted to adjust.
Generally, defense is hard to quantify in advanced stats. There are inconsistencies with Durenās defense in terms of effort, understanding how to play certain coverage and having awareness around him. Iām not sure if heāll ever get there.
Effort is the easiest to fix and heās starting to get better in the last few games, but it comes and goes.
Beef is a superior defender because he is switchable and can protect the rim despite his size. I still think the Pistons need a starting level big (and also a 3 and D wing player).
I just think people often forget how important rebounding is to being good defensively (especially in an era where teams are actually crashing the offensive glass again).
Durenās a very good rebounder, and that has actual value even if he canāt defend one on one well or protect the rim.
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Agreed. The Pistons are a good rebounding team which helps their defensive value. I still think Duren is a minus defensively. The argument for him is he turned 21 last November and is still a young player.
The Pistons have this season and the next season to decide if they want to keep him or not. Heāll be an RFA for the 2026-2027 season.
Yeah, Pistons have a couple 3 wings and a couple D wings, but no 3 and D wings. They could use one of those.
The hope for Langdon is he came from NOLA and hired Vinson to be part of the staff is they can develop the 3 part to go with the wing players who can play defense.
Hali above Cade is hilarious hahaha
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cade averaging almost 25 points, 7 rebounds, 10 assists on a team that was like 3-33 at this time in the season last year and he has the team above .500
that is just absolutely absurd. Very few players have more impact on a game than Cade. Much better efficiency this year, shooting better from 3 than your goat Haliburton. Pacers have one of the best spacing 5ās and Pascal and the Pacers have essentially the same record as Detroit.
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If Cade keeps playing how he has and some of the other guys continue to be hurt, you can make a case for him being a top 15 player in the NBA. In my original message I specifically said the Luka injury opens the door.
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People forgot Hali was 3rd team All-NBA last year averaging 20 points, 4 rebounds and 11 assists with a FARRR superior supporting cast.
And Cade is also a 2-way stud and has been playing very good defense.
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you guys quoting points and assists per game to me are just speaking a different langauge I guess
I didnāt even mention the guard scoring 30 a game on better scoring efficency than Cade. Weāll agree to disagree.
There is much to suggest that Halliburton has been more influential to winning (not by much) thus far this year.
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Iād say not referring stats is an even bigger point in the Cade argument but its a less efficient way to make a point on a forum argument if you are basing stuff on things that are more āsubjectiveā to some.
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Oh, there are plenty of stats to reference, but they arenāt points and assist per game.
then go off, king
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the whole point of EPM, BPM, DARKO, etc. is theyāve trained models with box score stats on plus/minus to figure out what, exactly, leads to winning. this is esp. easy to do with offensive stats.
EPM, which measures impact on team performance has NBA guards as follows, I am trimming some hyper-hyper-efficient smaller role guys like Derrick White and Fred VanVleet from this list because I donāt find it a useful comparison to what Cade is doing. Like Cade and Derrick White arenāt doing remotely the same job, and while Whiteās āimpactā may be higher, I think Cade could absolutely do Whiteās job mostly, but White couldnāt do Cadeās.
Shai
Luka
Curry
Garland
Morant
Mitchell
Ball
Brunson
Booker
Halliburton
Lillard
Cade
Bane
Maxey
Irving
Edwards
Simply due to role, I donāt find White and VanVleet, who are doing hyper-well in way more circumscribed roles, useful comps. I do think Ball is way too high here for vibes-based arguments.
Jalen Williams basically plays shooting guard for the Thunder but codes everywhere as a forward (he does play foward too). Heād slot in behind Mitchell here if you wished to include him.
(fwiw, EPM has Franz 6th in the NBA)