"Not a guy that can win a game single handedly" ....ok? What's that even suppose mean? What player can win games single handedly?
Put another way, he’s not a guy that can put a team on his back, fighting through double teams while remaining efficient. He is not Burke or Stauskas. He needs to be part of an ensemble cast, and he needs to develop his passing game rather than relying on so many difficult, contested shots. As a soph he had a terrific dynamic with Stauskas in the backcourt, but early on last year there was more than a little hero ball going on. With Dawkins, Irvin, healthy Walton, and an improved roll man in Doyle, he should have plenty of good passing options this year.
I know the wagon circlers will think this is demeaning his talent or pro prospects, but it isn’t. It’s being realistic.
“Early on last year there was a more than a little hero ball going on.” …Maybe because he was playing with a beat up and inexperienced supporting cast? I cringe thinking how bad this team would have been early on without LeVert. The freshmen and Irvin ended up developing, but early on they weren’t helping LeVert’s cause.
Oh, and Burke and Stauskas couldn’t win games single handedly either. They had more scoring-centric playing styles, but they still utilized significantly better supporting casts that LeVert had last year. Having a healthy Walton, LeVert, and GRIII helped space things out for Stauskas.
The whole “win games single handedly” fallacy is a bit ridiculous.
Do you believe Michigan has the supporting cast where Levert won’t have to be an elite guy? His supporting cast didn’t exactly play that well last year.
Did you stop watching after December? Irvin and Dawkins were so much better by the end of the season as compared to the early season. A healthy Walton. Just those three would be a big jump from last year’s supporting cast. I expect that there will be significant improvement in the other freshmen from year one to year two. Then there’s Robinson. Some guys will step up. Just don’t know who yet. Caris will benefit, whether someone wants to classify him as elite or not.
"Not a guy that can win a game single handedly" ....ok? What's that even suppose mean? What player can win games single handedly?
Put another way, he’s not a guy that can put a team on his back, fighting through double teams while remaining efficient. He is not Burke or Stauskas. He needs to be part of an ensemble cast, and he needs to develop his passing game rather than relying on so many difficult, contested shots. As a soph he had a terrific dynamic with Stauskas in the backcourt, but early on last year there was more than a little hero ball going on. With Dawkins, Irvin, healthy Walton, and an improved roll man in Doyle, he should have plenty of good passing options this year.
I know the wagon circlers will think this is demeaning his talent or pro prospects, but it isn’t. It’s being realistic.
“Early on last year there was a more than a little hero ball going on.” …Maybe because he was playing with a beat up and inexperienced supporting cast? I cringe thinking how bad this team would have been early on without LeVert. The freshmen and Irvin ended up developing, but early on they weren’t helping LeVert’s cause.
Oh, and Burke and Stauskas couldn’t win games single handedly either. They had more scoring-centric playing styles, but they still utilized significantly better supporting casts that LeVert had last year. Having a healthy Walton, LeVert, and GRIII helped space things out for Stauskas.
The whole “win games single handedly” fallacy is a bit ridiculous.
Do you believe Michigan has the supporting cast where Levert won’t have to be an elite guy? His supporting cast didn’t exactly play that well last year.
Did you stop watching after December? Irvin and Dawkins were so much better by the end of the season as compared to the early season. A healthy Walton. Just those three would be a big jump from last year’s supporting cast. I expect that there will be significant improvement in the other freshmen from year one to year two. Then there’s Robinson. Some guys will step up. Just don’t know who yet. Caris will benefit, whether someone wants to classify him as elite or not.
No I didn’t. I understand your comments but there are questions you need to ask. Is Dawkins going to average 30+ minutes per game like he did for the final 14 games? Maybe he will play that much, if he doesn’t how will his role change and will he be able to handle that role?
Irvin dominated the ball late in the year will he be able to dominate the ball with Walton and Levert back?
Why are we judging Irvin on his last 10 games and not his first 20+? Or how about we judge him collectively on his full body of work? This team didn’t look that good before the injuries hit and struggled a fair bit I would say. Did you watch the NJIT and EMU games?
“Why are we judging Irvin on his last 10 games and not his first 20+? Or how about we judge him collectively on his full body of work? This team didn’t look that good before the injuries hit and struggled a fair bit I would say. Did you watch the NJIT and EMU games?”
Because the assumption with all of these players is that they improved over the course of the season, and their performance towards the end of the year will be closer to their projected performance next season. I think that’s a pretty reasonable expectation, especially for freshman learning the offense, or for a sophomore playing starter’s minutes for the first time in Irvin’s case.
"Not a guy that can win a game single handedly" ....ok? What's that even suppose mean? What player can win games single handedly?
Put another way, he’s not a guy that can put a team on his back, fighting through double teams while remaining efficient. He is not Burke or Stauskas. He needs to be part of an ensemble cast, and he needs to develop his passing game rather than relying on so many difficult, contested shots. As a soph he had a terrific dynamic with Stauskas in the backcourt, but early on last year there was more than a little hero ball going on. With Dawkins, Irvin, healthy Walton, and an improved roll man in Doyle, he should have plenty of good passing options this year.
I know the wagon circlers will think this is demeaning his talent or pro prospects, but it isn’t. It’s being realistic.
“Early on last year there was a more than a little hero ball going on.” …Maybe because he was playing with a beat up and inexperienced supporting cast? I cringe thinking how bad this team would have been early on without LeVert. The freshmen and Irvin ended up developing, but early on they weren’t helping LeVert’s cause.
Oh, and Burke and Stauskas couldn’t win games single handedly either. They had more scoring-centric playing styles, but they still utilized significantly better supporting casts that LeVert had last year. Having a healthy Walton, LeVert, and GRIII helped space things out for Stauskas.
The whole “win games single handedly” fallacy is a bit ridiculous.
Do you believe Michigan has the supporting cast where Levert won’t have to be an elite guy? His supporting cast didn’t exactly play that well last year.
Did you stop watching after December? Irvin and Dawkins were so much better by the end of the season as compared to the early season. A healthy Walton. Just those three would be a big jump from last year’s supporting cast. I expect that there will be significant improvement in the other freshmen from year one to year two. Then there’s Robinson. Some guys will step up. Just don’t know who yet. Caris will benefit, whether someone wants to classify him as elite or not.
No I didn’t. I understand your comments but there are questions you need to ask. Is Dawkins going to average 30+ minutes per game like he did for the final 14 games? Maybe he will play that much, if he doesn’t how will his role change and will he be able to handle that role?
Irvin dominated the ball late in the year will he be able to dominate the ball with Walton and Levert back?
Why are we judging Irvin on his last 10 games and not his first 20+? Or how about we judge him collectively on his full body of work? This team didn’t look that good before the injuries hit and struggled a fair bit I would say. Did you watch the NJIT and EMU games?
Irvin’s last 10 games are representative of the Irvin we are likely to see this season. He improved substantially in several facets by the end of the season - rebounding, finishing, assists. You are apparently expecting him to regress. If Dawkins is playing fewer minutes, it will be because we have other players playing as well or better - meaning we have depth. Ironically, given your username, I didn’t even mention Spike, who proved that he could play B1G PG. The original question was whether the supporting cast would be better this season. You say “no”, same players, we won’t be much better. I say “yes”, same players, but greatly improved, a healthy Walton, an experienced gamer in Spike, a 6’8" gunner who could be a factor, too. Everyone’s at Camp Sanderson. Walton is now dunking with ease, fully healed. In Caris, Walton, Dawkins, Robinson and Irvin, we have 5 guys who can shoot over 40% on threes. I’m excited by our prospects. Don’t know how you can be “meh” about next season.
No I don’t expect Irvin to regress I just don’t believe the guy we saw the final 10 games is the type of guy we will see this upcoming year. A lot of that has to do with him not having the ball in his hands, Levert and Walton will dominate the ball and we won’t see the same type of Irvin.
I am meh about this season because everybody is ignoring the elephant in the room which is one of the worst D’s in Michigan basketball under Beilein. The D the past couple of years has been real bad. Nobody ever talks defense here it’s all about offense.
No I don't expect Irvin to regress I just don't believe the guy we saw the final 10 games is the type of guy we will see this upcoming year. A lot of that has to do with him not having the ball in his hands, Levert and Walton will dominate the ball and we won't see the same type of Irvin.
I am meh about this season because everybody is ignoring the elephant in the room which is one of the worst D’s in Michigan basketball under Beilein. The D the past couple of years has been real bad. Nobody ever talks defense here it’s all about offense.
Irvin isn’t going to have the ball in his hands as much, but now we know when he does that he’s not solely a shooter anymore. He can take his man off the dribble in a PnR and has a midrange game. That is going to be big for our offense and takes pressure off of Caris and Walton. At the beginning of last year he was not the kind of player you want to be your 3rd option (spot up shooter). Now he is perfectly fine as a 3rd option on a good team since he is much more diverse. His efficiency should go up too since he won’t be keyed on like he was after Caris and Walton went down.
Defense should be better (not great, I don’t think it’ll ever be great under JB) because we get our best perimeter defender back (Walton) and an okay defender in Caris. Irvin and Dawkins are bad defenders but now we can hide them a little better. And Doyle should be a better defender with experience.
It won’t be good, but as JB has shown there’s more than one way to skin a cat and we haven’t had a good defense since he’s been here but he makes up for it in other areas.
No I don't expect Irvin to regress I just don't believe the guy we saw the final 10 games is the type of guy we will see this upcoming year. A lot of that has to do with him not having the ball in his hands, Levert and Walton will dominate the ball and we won't see the same type of Irvin.
I am meh about this season because everybody is ignoring the elephant in the room which is one of the worst D’s in Michigan basketball under Beilein. The D the past couple of years has been real bad. Nobody ever talks defense here it’s all about offense.
Two years ago, we won the B1G by 3 games and were a jump shot away from the final four. You lose me when you take the position that having more guys who can score and pass is a disadvantage.
"Not a guy that can win a game single handedly" ....ok? What's that even suppose mean? What player can win games single handedly?
Put another way, he’s not a guy that can put a team on his back, fighting through double teams while remaining efficient. He is not Burke or Stauskas. He needs to be part of an ensemble cast, and he needs to develop his passing game rather than relying on so many difficult, contested shots. As a soph he had a terrific dynamic with Stauskas in the backcourt, but early on last year there was more than a little hero ball going on. With Dawkins, Irvin, healthy Walton, and an improved roll man in Doyle, he should have plenty of good passing options this year.
I know the wagon circlers will think this is demeaning his talent or pro prospects, but it isn’t. It’s being realistic.
“Early on last year there was a more than a little hero ball going on.” …Maybe because he was playing with a beat up and inexperienced supporting cast? I cringe thinking how bad this team would have been early on without LeVert. The freshmen and Irvin ended up developing, but early on they weren’t helping LeVert’s cause.
Oh, and Burke and Stauskas couldn’t win games single handedly either. They had more scoring-centric playing styles, but they still utilized significantly better supporting casts that LeVert had last year. Having a healthy Walton, LeVert, and GRIII helped space things out for Stauskas.
The whole “win games single handedly” fallacy is a bit ridiculous.
Do you believe Michigan has the supporting cast where Levert won’t have to be an elite guy? His supporting cast didn’t exactly play that well last year.
What the heck are you talking about? Nowhere did I say that LeVert doesn’t have to be elite. I said that I believe he is elite and the “winning games single handedly” isn’t the bar for being elite. LeVert may not be the scorer Stauskas was, but he does other things better (rebound, defend). There’s more to being an elite player than being an elite scorer.
"Not a guy that can win a game single handedly" ....ok? What's that even suppose mean? What player can win games single handedly?
Put another way, he’s not a guy that can put a team on his back, fighting through double teams while remaining efficient. He is not Burke or Stauskas. He needs to be part of an ensemble cast, and he needs to develop his passing game rather than relying on so many difficult, contested shots. As a soph he had a terrific dynamic with Stauskas in the backcourt, but early on last year there was more than a little hero ball going on. With Dawkins, Irvin, healthy Walton, and an improved roll man in Doyle, he should have plenty of good passing options this year.
I know the wagon circlers will think this is demeaning his talent or pro prospects, but it isn’t. It’s being realistic.
“Early on last year there was a more than a little hero ball going on.” …Maybe because he was playing with a beat up and inexperienced supporting cast? I cringe thinking how bad this team would have been early on without LeVert. The freshmen and Irvin ended up developing, but early on they weren’t helping LeVert’s cause.
Oh, and Burke and Stauskas couldn’t win games single handedly either. They had more scoring-centric playing styles, but they still utilized significantly better supporting casts that LeVert had last year. Having a healthy Walton, LeVert, and GRIII helped space things out for Stauskas.
The whole “win games single handedly” fallacy is a bit ridiculous.
Do you believe Michigan has the supporting cast where Levert won’t have to be an elite guy? His supporting cast didn’t exactly play that well last year.
Did you stop watching after December? Irvin and Dawkins were so much better by the end of the season as compared to the early season. A healthy Walton. Just those three would be a big jump from last year’s supporting cast. I expect that there will be significant improvement in the other freshmen from year one to year two. Then there’s Robinson. Some guys will step up. Just don’t know who yet. Caris will benefit, whether someone wants to classify him as elite or not.
No I didn’t. I understand your comments but there are questions you need to ask. Is Dawkins going to average 30+ minutes per game like he did for the final 14 games? Maybe he will play that much, if he doesn’t how will his role change and will he be able to handle that role?
Irvin dominated the ball late in the year will he be able to dominate the ball with Walton and Levert back?
Why are we judging Irvin on his last 10 games and not his first 20+? Or how about we judge him collectively on his full body of work? This team didn’t look that good before the injuries hit and struggled a fair bit I would say. Did you watch the NJIT and EMU games?
This is the same song and dance MSU fans took on Mitch McGary when he was entering his sophomore season. To anyone being objective, it’s easy to see the improvements Irvin made in the 2nd half of the season.
I am meh about this season because everybody is ignoring the elephant in the room which is one of the worst D's in Michigan basketball under Beilein. The D the past couple of years has been real bad. Nobody ever talks defense here it's all about offense.
We’ve also had one of the youngest teams in the country every year for the last few years. I expect experience (i.e. knowing where to be without having to think about it) and physical development will go a long way toward improving the defense…not to mention the length we’ll have. We’ll likely never be elite on that end under Beilein (that’s of course counter-balanced by being elite on offense), but I expect a big improvement.
It’ll be interesting to see what Levert sees his role as. Levert can dominate the ball to the point his teammates will look worse than they are. They get caught standing around watching him dribble the air out of the ball.
So did Dawkins improve to the extent people say he improved or is that improvement a mirage due to Levert getting injured and the ball being spread around more?
Dawkins played very well against some very bad competition and very poorly against the top half of the B1G. Point being, I’m not ready to draw any conclusions on just how good he is.
It'll be interesting to see what Levert sees his role as. Levert can dominate the ball to the point his teammates will look worse than they are. They get caught standing around watching him dribble the air out of the ball.
So did Dawkins improve to the extent people say he improved or is that improvement a mirage due to Levert getting injured and the ball being spread around more?
Dawkins played very well against some very bad competition and very poorly against the top half of the B1G. Point being, I’m not ready to draw any conclusions on just how good he is.
I agree that in the past Caris had a tendency to dominate the ball a bit too much, but I thought he showed progress in that regard last year before the injury. I’m hoping for continued improvement in that regard based on his growth as a player and the development of the pieces around him making it less of a necessity.
Sorry, but LeVert last year was good to very good at best, but never great, never dominant and never elite. Anyone who cares to dispute that is welcome. And he’s coming off a serious and recurring injury, his recovery from which is far from certain. His NBA stock was dropping, not rising. He may have an all-conference caliber season in him, but that’s far from certain. Same with Irvin…good to very good last year, but not elite. By comparison, look at someone like Kaminsky last year. There was zero doubt that he would be one of the top two or three players in the league and a POY candidate. That’s what having elite returning talent looks like. Michigan has nobody coming back who made ANY level of all-conference. That’s the first thing you judge a team’s prospects by…who they have coming back that did really well the year before. Then you look at the freshmen who are likely to have an immediate impact as starters, and possible improvement of players who were just OK to good, taking into account that every team has the potential for all of their returning players to show some degree of improvement, and that if that’s the main thing you are counting on, it’s not a clear advantage.
Bottom line…Michigan has a lot of potential, but a lot of catching up to do. We will almost certainly improve, but teams like Maryland, Indiana, Wisconsin and MSU aren’t going to stand still. We have to improve far MORE than all of those teams in order to exceed what most people are currently forecasting for us in the Big Ten.
Bottom line..Michigan has a lot of potential, but a lot of catching up to do. We will almost certainly improve, but teams like Maryland, Indiana, Wisconsin and MSU aren't going to stand still. We have to improve far MORE than all of those teams in order to exceed what most people are currently forecasting for us in the Big Ten.
You’re saying Wisconsin will be better next year than last year?
No, I’m saying that the players they have back will have just as much potential to improve as our returning players will and that their incoming freshmen will have at least as much potential to contribute as ours will. And that we were so far behind them last year that even if they’re not as good as they were, we will still have to improve a lot to be better than them.
It'll be interesting to see what Levert sees his role as. Levert can dominate the ball to the point his teammates will look worse than they are. They get caught standing around watching him dribble the air out of the ball.
So did Dawkins improve to the extent people say he improved or is that improvement a mirage due to Levert getting injured and the ball being spread around more?
Dawkins played very well against some very bad competition and very poorly against the top half of the B1G. Point being, I’m not ready to draw any conclusions on just how good he is.
Even at his best last year Dawkins was pretty much just a catch and shoot player.
It would be great if he has a breakout season but if he doesn’t I don’t think it’s all that critical to UMs success next year. It seems like Robinson can come in and replace his shooting no problem. His athleticism is nice, but it’s not like he was getting any rebounds last year.
No, I'm saying that the players they have back will have just as much potential to improve as our returning players will and that their incoming freshmen will have at least as much potential to contribute as ours will. And that we were so far behind them last year that even if they're not as good as they were, we will still have to improve a lot to be better than them.
So many moving parts, but I think what we add to last year’s returnees (Caris, Walton, Robinson, Wilson) puts us comfortably ahead of where they start minus their losses. Basically meaning, yes they have as much “potential” to improve, but start ahead of them on the board game if that makes sense. At risk of taking your last sentence too literally, you seem to be forgetting those guys I listed above.
No, I'm saying that the players they have back will have just as much potential to improve as our returning players will and that their incoming freshmen will have at least as much potential to contribute as ours will. And that we were so far behind them last year that even if they're not as good as they were, we will still have to improve a lot to be better than them.
So many moving parts, but I think what we add to last year’s returnees (Caris, Walton, Robinson, Wilson) puts us comfortably ahead of where they start minus their losses. Basically meaning, yes they have as much “potential” to improve, but start ahead of them on the board game if that makes sense. At risk of taking your last sentence too literally, you seem to be forgetting those guys I listed above.
And wisc is losing two first round picks and two four years starters. I don’t think you can look at what they did last year and have any idea what they will be this year.
Exactly...after 2012-13 we lost two guys early to the NBA and McGary for basically the whole year and did far better in the Big Ten.
Ehhh. Michigan was still a preseason top ten team because of the talent they had left over. Don't think Wisky is close to that talent wise right now. Only like two rotation guys left from last year.