In the 30 years since 1985 when the tourney went to 64+ teams requiring teams to win at least 3 games to get to the ELITE 8, only 13 schools could have made it a half dozen times to what I consider a “deep tourney run”…
Duke: (15 times)
Kentucky (15)
North Carolina (15)
Kansas (12)
Arizona (10)
Connecticut (9)
Michigan State (9)
Louisville (8)
Florida (8)
UCLA (7)
Syracuse (6)
Michigan (6)
Georgetown (6)
…forgive me if my count is off (did while watching Tiger’s game–thanks wiki)
NOTE: 3 schools make it every other year
NOTE: 4 schools make it about every 3rd year
NOTE: 6 schools make it every 4-5 years
NOTE: There are A LOT of so called basketball schools that haven’t made it even 6 times to E8 over 30 years!
CONCLUSION: I think it unrealistic to expect UM to be in Final 4 most years even as a potential ELITE school. I would expect us to get to Elite 8 every 3 years (which would be consistent with our history less that decade of wilderness) and be among the ELITE 8 teams in the country–yet I do not see getting into the elite of the elites (Duke, UK, UNC, Kansas) any time soon.
Realize Indiana, Maryland, OSU, and over 320 other schools didn’t make the above list OF 13!
Well, I’m not sure Arizona is killing us in anything. They beat us by two points last year and, with their whole team back and our three best players gone, beat us really good this year. They’ve made the Elite Eight two years in a row, which is very good, but we made the title game (so, two more wins than their best) two years ago. They are definitely recruiting at a very high level, no question. I think their program is overall better, but heck, look at the head start they had before JB took over our program - while we were missing 10 straight tourneys, they were playing great basketball.
Well, out of those teams, Arizona is really strong right now. They’re killing us in head-to-head matchups and of course overall results since '13. I’m not saying that’s why anyone considers them better than us, but we can really compete with them–let’s get it done the next few years.
In the 30 years since 1985 when the tourney went to 64+ teams requiring teams to win at least 3 games to get to the ELITE 8, only 13 schools could have made it a half dozen times to what I consider a "deep tourney run"...
1. Duke: (15 times)
2. Kentucky (15)
3. North Carolina (15)
4. Kansas (12)
5. Arizona (10)
6. Connecticut (9)
7. Michigan State (9)
8. Louisville (8)
9. Florida (8)
10. UCLA (7)
11. Syracuse (6)
12. Michigan (6)
13. Georgetown (6)
...forgive me if my count is off (did while watching Tiger's game--thanks wiki)
NOTE: 3 schools make it every other year
NOTE: 4 schools make it about every 3rd year
NOTE: 6 schools make it every 4-5 years
NOTE: There are A LOT of so called basketball schools that haven’t made it even 6 times to E8 over 30 years!
CONCLUSION: I think it unrealistic to expect UM to be in Final 4 most years even as a potential ELITE school. I would expect us to get to Elite 8 every 3 years (which would be consistent with our history less that decade of wilderness) and be among the ELITE 8 teams in the country–yet I do not see getting into the elite of the elites (Duke, UK, UNC, Kansas) any time soon.
Realize Indiana, Maryland, OSU, and over 320 other schools didn’t make the above list OF 13!
Love the concept, but would refine the search to sweet 16 appearances and not elite 8’s. Consistently making the sweet 16 is a sign of a top notch program in one and done tournaments. At that point, anything goes IMO.
Why do people Consider Georgetown ,Arizona and Syracuse better bball programs than Michigan? We Have been to Final 4s in the 60s twice , 70s, 80s, 90s twice and 2010s. One bad decade from 99 to 09 we were terrible and People forget unless you were born in 89 and up I get it but Michigan to me has as much or more bball traditon than those schools. Georgetown was strong during the Ewing years and by 89 they were not. Syracuse has been to Final 4s in 87, 96, 03, and 2013 What makes them Better? Zona 88’ 94, 97, and 2001. Each has won 1 championship lets quit selling our program short.
I was the same class as the Fab Five. I knew all about the recruiting class because I grew up in Michigan and Webber and Rose were high school legends, Webber especially. Before the games even started, I went to the open practices and it was pretty special - bought season tickets immediately. That Duke game in 1991 was incredible - I loved seeing Webber dunk all over Laettner like he was invisible. Great times. Basketball was definitely bigger than football my first three years at Michigan, and it wasn’t close.
Unfortunately, the Ed Martin scandal has all hut ended the possibility of us getting a class like that again. Personally, I think the University seriously overreacted to it, and failed to understand that Fisher was playing the same game all coaches have to play to land elite recruits. At most places, a slap on the wrist and some benign internal policing would be it.
But since we are determined to walk the straight and narrow, I’m really happy to have JB, who came as close to winning a title as the Fab Five doing it “the right way.” (Small shot at Fisher).
Matt, come on - you can’t hold anyone up to the standard of the Lakers in the 1980s. Not unless we get 11 years of Trey Burke, the same way the Lakers get 11 years of Magic.
I think we could recruit with anyone - including Duke and Kentucky - but only if we took the gloves off and let our coaches set up the “relationships” necessary to get elite players. Rest assured, it won’t happen. As I’ve said often over the past few days, our recruiting base will be top 40-100, with the occasional recruitable five star guy. We’re not landing 3-4 of those guys in a given class, barring some really unusual circumstances (like Thornton and Battle at one point wanting to play together).
That’s why I really like JB - I know he can get guys like that (top 40-100) and turn them into great players, and in the process field a great team. Amaker couldn’t, and I suspect it’s much harder than most people think.
In the future, one thing that may really help basketball recruiting is if our football program is very successful. I think there is something about attending a big football game under the lights, with the atmosphere of the big time athletic program, that is very interesting to recruits, and that is not something they will find at Duke or Kentucky. McGary had a great time at a football game; Chatman was there for the UTL game against ND (of course so was Jalen Coleman).
I do like DeMarcus Cousins and his improvement over the last four years has been tremendous. I just hope he doesn't start floating out to the perimeter more a la Rasheed Wallace. And Okafor reminds me a bit of Elton Brand, at least offensively. Advanced post moves, huge hands and ability to finish through contact.
I think Greg Monroe actually is one of the best post players today, but he complains far too much and has no lateral quickness or defense. That seems to be the deal these days: great offensive post players can’t play defense. I’ll be happy when the Pistons don’t give him the max money he thinks he deserves.
In a nutshell, freakishly athletic bigs at the 5 are far more valuable than offensive minded bigs that can’t move laterally or jump. Players like DeAndre Jordan and Dwight Howard are much more valuable than Cousins/Okafor, they will command max salaries in today’s NBA. Guards and wings in the NBA are simply too atheltic for any reasonable defender to keep in check, and bigs must have the ability to hedge, recover, and block shots…athleticism has replaced skill as the prime attribute in the NBA.
Greg Monroe is a decent back to the basket player, but he’s just a bad defensive player. There were talks the Lakers would make a push to get him…I sure hope not. I want no parts of paying a guy 12-14 million and he’s incompetent on defense.
Wanted to quickly chime in on this topic since it's moved to the NBA. I'm a diehard Pistons fan and loved nothing more than taking out the Lakers in '04. Respect Kobe to death, but Game 5 was probably the greatest sports night of my life (I'm 26 so I don't have much to compare it to)...
With respect to Kareem, I think he’s become kind of forgotten considering he’s the NBA’s all-time leading scorer. He’s one of the most talented players ever, though he also was lucky to have never missed significant time to injury. The consistency is what amazes me. Check his stats and you see greatness: http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/abdulka01.html
To have a player like that today would change the NBA as we know it now. The classic center is a dying position replaced by floor-stretching PFs that work on their versatility more than one set of skills. As soon as Tim Duncan retires (and he’s still more of a PF) we will be without a great low-post player that can dominate. As a kid growing up learning the game of basketball as a big man, it disappointed me seeing that happen over the last 10 years.
Sorry this is so off-topic but I find it interesting to discuss nonetheless. Could also relate it back to Beilein and his love for big men that can stretch the floor or the fact that he must have four guys on the floor that can shoot the 3-ball, etc…
DeMarcus Cousins is most certainly a great post player in today’s game. Okafor will be one as well. Both will be subpar defensively though, which is why Anthony Davis is such a commodity.
I do like DeMarcus Cousins and his improvement over the last four years has been tremendous. I just hope he doesn’t start floating out to the perimeter more a la Rasheed Wallace. And Okafor reminds me a bit of Elton Brand, at least offensively. Advanced post moves, huge hands and ability to finish through contact.
I think Greg Monroe actually is one of the best post players today, but he complains far too much and has no lateral quickness or defense. That seems to be the deal these days: great offensive post players can’t play defense. I’ll be happy when the Pistons don’t give him the max money he thinks he deserves.
Wanted to quickly chime in on this topic since it’s moved to the NBA. I’m a diehard Pistons fan and loved nothing more than taking out the Lakers in '04. Respect Kobe to death, but Game 5 was probably the greatest sports night of my life (I’m 26 so I don’t have much to compare it to)…
With respect to Kareem, I think he’s become kind of forgotten considering he’s the NBA’s all-time leading scorer. He’s one of the most talented players ever, though he also was lucky to have never missed significant time to injury. The consistency is what amazes me. Check his stats and you see greatness: http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/abdulka01.html
To have a player like that today would change the NBA as we know it now. The classic center is a dying position replaced by floor-stretching PFs that work on their versatility more than one set of skills. As soon as Tim Duncan retires (and he’s still more of a PF) we will be without a great low-post player that can dominate. As a kid growing up learning the game of basketball as a big man, it disappointed me seeing that happen over the last 10 years.
Sorry this is so off-topic but I find it interesting to discuss nonetheless. Could also relate it back to Beilein and his love for big men that can stretch the floor or the fact that he must have four guys on the floor that can shoot the 3-ball, etc…
I was U-M freshman when the Fab 5 were sophomores. We watched both the Kentucky and UNC games on the big screen at Crisler. I probably wouldn’t have gotten hooked on basketball watching Michael Talley, James Voskuil, Jason Bossard, Dugan Fife, and even Montross if we would’ve gotten him. Also, my friends and I didn’t have much time for Albert White, Willie Mitchell, Mahktar Ndiaye, and all those whiny transfers.
I never really noticed the shorts or socks or really thought of them as rebels or as cool. I just thought they took care of business on the floor.
Personally, I just love the folks, in sports, that people call arrogant; the ones who are better than you and they let you know about it. So even though I grew up a Pistons fan, I am a huge Kobe fan. Can't say I ride for the Lakers, but I don't hate them.
Why I cherish the Fab Five era more than any in Michigan's athletic history.
I couldn’t agree more…that era of UM basketball was more than just sport, that was literally a cultural revolution on the mainstream level (UNLV was the precursor). I was lucky enough to be at the 1991 Duke game at Crisler. One of the most exciting athletic events I’ve ever witnessed…the talent on the court that day was almost unreal. The crowd knew this was more than a game, this was an event that had near historical implications…Crisler was absolutely jacked. When Jalen Rose was trash-talking Laettner, it was basically the equivalent of saying f*ck you to the ‘establishment’, and I loved every bit of it.
I'm right there with you, the program was just "cool" in the eyes of the general public, in a way that current Kentucky basketball can't even begin to compare. Like the NWA of the sports world, and every moment was worth it. The sanctions.....I don't know, I don't care anymore, and barely have ever. It's obvious what side of the fence I'm on, but what happened doesn't really bother me or make me, or anybody, feel like the academic value of the institution was risked. There's an entire university that failed to take initiative on child molestation, perhaps go so far as to cover it up. A couple of roughshod philanthrophic programs later, they're now, once again, in contention for championships. There's another prestigious institution that's on the verge of risking it's academic integrity. Not giving my opinion on the Penn State or NC cases, I just want to point out that, in comparison, we actually helped the NCAA commandeer the program into a crater. Maybe that's the Michigan difference, but... uh, that was kind of unnecessary dude.
that said, I don’t think I would like MBB as much as I do now if the Fab Five had never come. NCAA might say they don’t exist but they’re still real to me dammit. https://youtube.com/watch?v=BvTNyKIGXiI
Guess some people at the Lakers forum also think the Showtime Lakers might be the best team of all time–certainly, for me, the most fun to watch. With them it was a team; with Kobe, a guy.
Guess some people at the Lakers forum also think the Showtime Lakers might be the best team of all time--certainly, for me, the most fun to watch. With them it was a team; with Kobe, a guy.
http://www.lakersnation.com/which-is-the-greatest-lakers-team-of-all-time/2011/11/01/
Put it this way, take Kareem off the 80s Lakers teams, insert Kobe in the starting lineup, and I think the Lakers may have realistically won 8-9 consecutive championships. On the other hand, trade Shaq for Kareem from 99-04, and I think the Lakers probably win 1 title. Kareem, just wasn’t a very dominant player with the Lakers…
Furthermore, you basically throw a jab at me with the ‘armchair PG’ comment and then proceed to label Kobe as just ‘a guy’…that doesn’t rub me the right way, but in the interest of peace I’ll let it go.
That being said, thats what I love about basketball…the individual play is so great that it exceeds the value of the team in some instances. When one individual is that good (and wins at the highest level when doing it), to the point of basically being unstoppable, that is basketball at the absolute peak in my opinion. I pay sky high ticket prices to see 81 points in 1 game, 9 straight 40 point games in a season, etc. It’s the nonhuman like accomplishments that make a guy like Kobe special. Im sorry but nobody is going to pay ticket prices for basic team basketball unless it’s the finals…it’s just not that entertaining in my opinion. I love basketball, and Kobe in particular, because he is the show, and he’s worth every penny.
“Bottom line for me is Kareem put up numbers, but didn’t impact the game much in my opinion, at least not with the Lakers.”
Well, google Kareem and best player; you’ll get a lot of hits. When he retired, many were saying he was the best player of all time. You may just never have been around to see him drop 20-30 points on people with that sky hook. And–I’ll only say it once and then leave it–but there’s something seriously wrong when armchair discussion board point guards start calling all-time great players, who trained for hundreds of hours and pioneered the game, “soft.” This is where fans cross a certain unknowing threshold that I lament. Call it projection, call it what you want, but. . . little off. All best.
Nothing wrong with high expectations…it’s just how you act on those expectations that defines you (not you but “you” in general)
IMO Michigan athletics as a whole tucked their tail and ran since the late '90s.
Save face you might say. Football and Basketball just took a dump.
We had that chip on the shoulder before, but lost it.
I like Beilein because he polished up the program and put us back on the map.
Big 10 titles, Elite 8’s, Final Four, players in the NBA…we missed that for like 12 years!
But it’s time to move from respectable to dominate. We need to keep the ball rolling.
If Bo Ryan at Wisconsin can average 26 wins (12 BT Wins) per year and at least a Sweet 16 every other year (if not more), then I think Michigan can set the bar pretty high.
Thank you. No rational fans expect us to be on the level of UK, KU, Duke, or NC. But there is no reason we can’t be up there with Wisconsin, OSU and Sparty on a consistent basis. We did that from 2012-2014, and I would love to see us do it for the next three years. In order to do that, however, we need to pull in some top talent in 2016.
Hakeem was cool; at least we can agree on that. I’m not sure he ripped a lot of rebounds either, though. Dunno how you can love the Lakes and not like Kareem, though–greatest big man who ever played the game. Also, a highly evolved Urantian being.
Hakeem was cool; at least we can agree on that. I'm not sure he ripped a lot of rebounds either, though. Dunno how you can love the Lakes and not like Kareem, though--greatest big man who ever played the game. Also, a highly evolved Urantian being. :)
Hakeem was a rebounding machine from what I can recall. Not a fan of Kareem as a Laker (too young to remember anything he did pre Laker days) because if he wasn’t scoring he was essentially useless. For a guy that was 7 feet tall, he did very little too impact the game on the other side of the court. On top of that, his offensive diversity was non-existent…he had one shot, and one shot only. He was basically a mid range jumpshooter on a functional basis. Far from the greatest big man in my mind. I’m not a huge fan of Shaq…but I’d take him over Kareem in a minute.
To give you some context, the 79 Lakers with Kareem (close to his prime at that time) only won 47 games. That team featured Jamaal Wilkes, Norm Nixon and Adrian Dantley as the supporting cast to Kareem. Those are 3 all star level players paired with Kareem…47 games is pathetic with that level of talent. Fast forward 1 year, Kareem is no longer the focal piece (enter Magic), and bingo…NBA Championship.
Bottom line for me is Kareem put up numbers, but didn’t impact the game much in my opinion, at least not with the Lakers.
