I think he has said it’s Cohill and Easley. I’d also take Cohill
Correct, Cohill and Easley
I don’t know that the other guys are necessarily knockdown shooters, but that’s pretty much my point - If Cain is a comparable shooter to the guys already on board, he doesn’t bring something that isn’t there. I do think Poole will be a better shooter than Cain, and perhaps Watson too - not necessarily shooting better percentages, but with the ability to do so on tougher shots, at least early on. But I think Cain has a chance to be a very good shooter too.
As for '18 guys, I think we’re in “good shape” for out top recruits, but that doesn’t mean we’ll get them. But I’m just not worried about what guys are going to sign right here and now. I have confidence that Michigan can grab guards/wings rated in the 50-150 range and/or guys they really like.
As for the bird in the hand question, the staff obviously agree to some extent - taking Livers and Brooks even if they offered Young and Eastern (and Cain) first. But once you’ve already secured a group of guys you like, you have to take into account class balance (8 guys already in the '16 and '17 classes), the chance to get a truly elite guy (even if the chances aren’t great), the opportunity to keep Donnal for a fifth, etc.
I’m not against taking Cain, but I think it’s reasonable for the coaches to not take him in the early signing period. We’ll see what happens.
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He doesn’t bring anything else? He brings much needed athleticism over anyone on the roster other than Matthews. Also a better rebounder than all of those guys. Just don’t think your points make much sense here. If you just don’t care for his game, I can accept that, but to initially infer he wasn’t the same level shooter or doesn’t bring anything additional in relation to the current commits isn’t really accurate
We were talking about outside shooting – whether Cain was needed for his outside shooting – not anything else. Also, I didn’t imply (infer means something else) that he wasn’t the same level of shooter than the other guys listed, just that he wasn’t significantly better than they were. I know you’re close with Cain, but maybe you shouldn’t read or write about him on here if you can’t do it without getting so upset.
I can really see both sides of the argument here…
I also think it’s important to remember that 8 of the 12 players on next year’s roster haven’t played a college game. That makes it particularly tough to gauge needs, etc.
I think the Cain question probably boils down to what position you think he’d play at Michigan and I can, again, see the arguments either way. Add in to that the uncertainty of how exactly Duncan, DJ and Wagner will fit… Those players make up 3 of the 4 returning players on the roster next year and could have some positional overlap with Cain depending on how much of a three or a four he is.
Add in Ibi, Charles, Poole and Livers and you have more overlap on the wings (3/4)…
Bottom line is that it is how to gauge how that group of Duncan, DJ, Wagner, Ibi, Charles, Poole and Livers will gel and fit together. And frankly how good or bad they’ll be.
As for looking ahead to '18… Hunter/Johns are clearly guys the staff likes a lot and again have some positional similarity… After watching Easley at camp, I don’t think he’s a take. Waiting til 18 also gives you at least a little more time to evaluate what you have for those spots as well.
Then you have the Bamba card where you can turnaround and say… What % chance do I need to have at Bamba to take the gamble? The one thing about Bamba that is nice is that he would take Donnal’s spot and play the same position (and obviously provide a huge boost to the position).
I don’t think there are clear yes or no answers to all or many of these questions, but I’d guess this is kind of the thinking for how to handle the last remaining scholarship in '17.
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‘We’ weren’t restricting the convo to shooting, you were. Also, I’m not upset at all, your contentions just don’t add up to be candid. John Miller isn’t a fan of Jamal’s game and I take no issue with it because that is his prerogative and he doesn’t attempt to hide the fact that he loves rankings. But when you say Cain doesn’t add anything else in relation to the other commits, that is false, period.
My comment was a reply to Lopez who said “One reason is that after next season we will need someone to step in to help with outside shooting besides Watson.”
I said “Robinson, Poole, Livers, and Watson will all be on the team, as will Simpson and Brooks, and I wouldn’t be surprised to see Matthews’s shooting improve tremendously from what it was at KY. I don’t think outside shooting will be a huge issue, nor is Cain a knockdown shooter.”
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Yeah, I don’t see a “right answer” and it’s even harder for us to get to one because we’re not in the room to know the interest level from Bamba or the '18 guys we’re really high on, we’re not seeing the practices to know how the '16 guys are doing, etc.
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While I appreciate your scouting opinions on players, it is reassuring to see that other scouts are also starting to view Cain as a top 100 player. I definitely understand that you trust your own eyes, during live evaluation, more than film or the opinions of other scouts; you have your reasons for that. But, you are clearly the biggest proponent of Cain.
Let’s say that the staff has a choice between Cain and definitely (obvious hypothetical) getting Cohill, what do you think they should do–taking into account roster construction and projected career production? I ask about Cohill because you seem to think he is the best 2018 combination of talent, potential, and interest in UofM.
I’ve been a proponent of Cain since before any service had even thought about ranking him, watching him live last year in Romulus there was no doubt in my mind he was a top 100 type player that could help UM out in a major way. I wouldn’t say I’m the biggest proponent of Cain, as I’ve always maintained he’s a 60-80 type, which is where he appears to be headed when all is said and done. Stating I’m his biggest fan implies that I value him more than any other scout/service, which isn’t true, it just took the others a while to view him before confirming what I’ve already known. In that sense, we all value Jamal the same, timing is the difference.
My answer to your question is this - the staff should’ve taken that into account before taking Eli Brooks. Some may like Brooks as a third guard (even though some folks were initially saying they don’t think that was by design, although now it is very clear), but he’s probably the least talented and desirable option out of any of our targets in my view based on limited film. I think the difference between Cohill and Jamal is positional versatility, Cohill can really only play one position, PG. Cain, on the other hand can certainly play the 2 and 3 without question, and perhaps the 4 as an upperclassmen once his frame fills out. He’s probably the only recruit on our board, along with Carmody, with enough perimeter skill to play the 2 or 3, while having the athleticism to be a plus defender and rebounder. Difference is that Jamal has much more upside in relation to Carmody.
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I recognize that you ‘discovered’ Cain. Your support has been unwavering and pretty extreme; what I’m saying is that you opinions of Jamal are beginning to become blatantly justifiable, even before he has taken a college court (which is when I think most people planned on seeing what we got/missed out on).
I’m not saying that your scouting opinion was unoriginal, I was just trying to gauge just how highly you rate him, when comparing him to 2018 options, because–aside from Bamba kind of making things interesting–the current most pertinent question seems to be: Cain or bank the scholarship for 2018?
No doubt about it, if Bamba wants to come you take him and ask questions later.
In terms of your question - Cain or bank to 18, it all depends on the opportunity cost that is two fold. Will the replacement be worth the cost of Cain from a production standpoint in 17 and an improved and stronger Cain in 18. Based on known targets right now, I’d say no.
A sophomore Cain is better than any known 18 prospect, and its probably not close.
Let’s play hypothetical here going back to some of what I wrote up above… where in the UM roster/rotation would you see Cain playing in 2017-18?
Zak Irvin role as a freshman. 10-15 mpg as a sniper, although he’d be much better in transition and finishing.
Do you think a sophomore Jamal is better than any of a freshman Ryan, Carmody, or Johns?
A sophomore Cain is better than any known 18 prospect, and its probably not close.
That is exactly my view point regarding Cain. As I think most here may think of him as a 4 that is not my thought. I see a 3 who could turnout to be useful as a 2. My major issue lately with the team is we never have adequate bench strength. Plus the nature of the college ball today is that someone is going to leave maybe two or three. Then you are left with what we have this year an injury away from playing walk on’s.
I feel like what you described in the role Cain would play is why we recruited Watson. To do that exact thing.
What we recruited him to do, and what he’s capable of, are two very distinct things.
First, Cain is a significantly better shooter than Watson. I think there will even be a larger discrepancy in college because Cain gets nice elevation on his shot at 6’7 whereas Watson has a set shot and low release point at 6’5.
Second, in terms of being a baseline finisher, Ibi is non-existent because he can only jump off 1 leg whereas Cain goes off 2 often and displayed that exact ability in EYBL. Cain can also elevate off 1 leg as well. Bottom line is that Jamal can finish in the half court and in transition whereas Watson is limited to transition only.
Third, Jamal is a better rebounder with more motor in relation to Watson.
Last, Cain is a much better defender than Watson.
I honestly can’t believe that there are people on this board who watched how challenged we were athletically last year that doesn’t want to jump at the opportunity to add a kid like this to the roster…
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Agreed! I’m even higher on Cain than MattD (if that is humanly possible). He has a superior shooting stroke which he consistently repeats. He’ll be the best pure shooter on the 2016-17 team, with the exception of Duncan Robinson. Just try to imagine what kind of player he’ll be in 2-3 years of strength improvement, conditioning, maturity and experience at this level.